To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

The state also subsidises private education in Finland and New Zealand. Just to add as well, EU law does not allow the taxing of education. Starmer has said he doesn’t want to diverge from EU law, which is exactly what this policy does.

I’m glad you had a great state school experience, but you have to accept that not everyone is that lucky. I went to a god awful state secondary in a deprived inner city area, the GCSE pass rate was 8% and the school was ranked in the bottom 10 in the country. I was lucky that I was bright and kept in with a good circle of friends, but my achievements were despite my school experience, not because of it.

We’re lucky enough that private school might be a viable option when our kids are old enough and I would move hell or high water to make sure my kids didn’t have a similar secondary experience to mine.

There is no VAT on private healthcare. Also, half of private schools do not have charitable status. VAT and charitable status are entirely separate.

Are your kids at fee paying schools?

Do you want to link us to the Telegraph/Daily Mail article you've looked at the sets out the financial argument that imposing 20% VAT on school fees will both 1) increase fees to the point where the tiny percentage of mainly very wealthy parents with kids at private schools won't be able to afford them 2) not actually raise any money?

Because if private school fees went up by 24% between 2010 and 2019 and it made absolutely sod all difference to the number of people sending their kids to one - in fact the percentage using fee paying schools went up - then it's a reasonable punt to think that most parents will be able to find the money if it really matters to them.

And it's a reasonable punt to assume that if you're expecting state schools to educate a child for 7K a year, then there's some slack for cost cutting in private schools charging 15K a year per child to provide an education.

"The state also subsidises private education in Finland and New Zealand."

Only 2% of schools in Finland are private schools. They're not allowed to select pupils.

As I said upthread, the Labour government in the 70s tried a cockeyed version of this. A number of the highest achieving pupils at 11+ in state schools were given places at private schools funded by the govt. it didn't change or achieve anything really but I got a private education for £0 as did my sister

You forgot to add that New Zealand charges 15% GST on private school fees.

State subsidy is only around £500 (primary) - £1000 (secondary) per pupil.

@LyndaLaHughes

"Plus for all the people moaning about this- the actual number who will actually have to pull their children out will be a minute proportion"

So firstly it is impossible to state at this point in time on the percentage of parents that will pull their children out of private education. We will only find out over the course of time.

However what we do know today is that the number of children enrolling at private schools to start in September 2024 is 3% lower than in 2023. One would presume that once the policy was announced then there would be a much bigger drop off and once introduced a bigger drop off again.

So a fall of 20 to 25% by the end of 5 years would seem entirely realistic.

Charging 15% tax on something which is state subsidised is vastly different from charging 20% on something which isn’t.

I wrote this on a similar thread.

Interesting article by Tim Leunig, an economist and former special adviser to Downing Street,the Treasury and Department for Education in 2023. He tweeted despite the threat of VAT, private school applications are the second highest in history. He has no doubt that the sector will be fine, and that Labour will raise a decent sum of money.

From article:

“There are times in our lives when bad stuff happens. State schools did not want the Theresa May cuts in real-terms funding. Indeed, they didn’t want austerity at all. But you know what? That is democracy and we have to live with the decisions our politicians make.

State schools, starting from much lower levels of funding, managed to make ends meet. Good, valuable things were scrapped. Quite remarkably (at least until Covid) our schools and our children coped. Outcomes remained strong, measured by GCSE results, PISA and comparison with other parts of the UK. Our state schools can be proud of what they have achieved in tough times.
It is time for private schools to show the same resilience. Fees have risen a lot in recent years. If parents won’t pay 20 per cent more, private schools need to make austerity work. No more fancy new buildings. Hire out that swimming pool in the evenings. Maybe – whisper it quietly – close the pool altogether.
And if they struggle to do that, perhaps they should approach their local state schools to ask how to cut costs without cutting standards. I am sure for the right fee our state school leaders, many of whom really are outstanding, would be willing to impart their wisdom.No doubt they’d find a lot of savings to make. In fact, I’d bet a bottle of luxury sparkling wine on it.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/avoiding-vat-is-a-risky-strategy-for-private-schools-better-advice-is-available/

Look I am entitled to my opinion, just because you don't like it doesn't mean my thread is "planted". I have been watching discussions on TV and on threads and was looking at the numbers and wondered how much of a saving this was and I don't think it stacks up, I am allowed to discuss it.

And my view point is not of a parent if a child at private school.

And holding this viewpoint does not mean I have no sympathy for other causes or concerns - it is possible to hold several view points.

I don't think that private school children are to blame for children in poverty- I don't see why you are pitting one against the other.

@silverneedle

Private school enrolment for September 2024 is down 3 % from 2023.

Did you miss the size of the New Zealand subsidy?

How much difference would the same amount of £500 off average UK primary school fees of £16k or £1000 off UK secondary school fees of £19k make?

Not a lot?

Of course you are. As am l. I'm just not sure why you are worrying about such a small privileged group. We know there is a concerted campaign in the papers for them.

Wish there was similar concern for FSM kids & foodbank users.

I am invested in my child's education not yours. I would pay for private tutors and private extracurricular activities and save the school fees money for a nice villa in the sun and a ski chalet. There's still zero benefit to you or the country.

Private patients don’t jump over an NHS queue-they are separate things completely. And you could say that those going by private means they help the NHS queue go faster as they are not in there…

I am not worrying about a small privileged group, I am questioning manifesto proposals that I don't think will deliver what they suggest they will whilst being divisive. I think there are better ways to approach that in a proportionate way.

I also have views on other matters about other groups - it is possible to hold such concerns at the same time and discussing this matter does not negate or detriment other causes or mean that they are held in less regard, this is definitelynot the most important concern for me in any way, that does not mean i can't discuss this subject , surely that is the same for most people - ypu can debate and dicuss many views on many subjects.

In Sweden as well the state pays you just pick the school you want. This is what labour should be proposing for ALL children not envy politics

And it's a reasonable punt to assume that if you're expecting state schools to educate a child for 7K a year, then there's some slack for cost cutting in private schools charging 15K a year per child to provide an education

How many times? A class with 15 children paying £14k has the exact same per head funding as a class with 30 for whom £7K is received.

Divisive to whom? What is your better way? If its not the most important issue to you why post a thread starter on it?
Disingenuous.

It’s going to raise very little if anything and will harm some children in the process. Don’t fall for the rhetoric. It’s the same as the bloody Brexit bus.

Private schools are not charities and therefore should pay VAT like any other business.

And Australia, the country that we lose loads of our doctors to….this has to be one of the stupidest policies ever concocted by any political party. Let’s alienate those people whose tax keeps the country running because they actually contribute more in tax then they take out and encourage them to take their skills to another country.

In your “expert” opinion. By the way VAT has nothing to do with being a charity. Some services and goods are VAT exempt, others are not. The legal status of the organisation proving the services or goods does not impact whether they pay VAT or not.

This!