To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Can Mumsnet HQ set up a “private school and tax” board as there has been so many posts that just keep repeating the same arguments?

It's a bit like how preventing higher earners from accessing child benefit costs more to administer than just making it a universal benefit. People just enjoy rich folk squirming especially when they're struggling themselves.

But I don't believe it would cost £4 billion. Most would find the VAT and the treasury would benefit. Those who couldn't would be offered a place in a school with capacity.

I do know @Bigmacmary being as I have a child with SEN.

@Bigmacmary
Inheritance tax? It’s relatively easy to avoid atm but if we could get away from the cultural expectation of inheriting then cutting down the nil rate band could potentially raise a huge amount. And arguably inheriting a large amount in your 20s or 30s creates more inequality in society than private schools because it concentrates wealth over generations. At the moment if you earn £150k you lose half in tax but if you are gifted it it’s tax free.

Probably politically unpopular though.

A large majority of private school pupils will stay where they are.
For many parents, an extra 20% is neither here nor there, and for those who are not well off, many parents will cut back on other things so that their child, or children, can finish their education in their current school.
Another option will be for some parents to move, to access the best state schools.
Some children will need to leave, but I don't think the number will be significant.

Jesus Christ. If I have to see one more thread about this I’m going to hurl my toaster out the window.

I guess my point on that is that the 554000 dc are saving the state over 7k per child per year - so those parents are saving the state 4billion already before you claw an extra 1.3 billion off them.

More is lost in benefit fraud, more is lost in tax evasion and tax loopholes - this is just a publicity point and divisive in that it sets people up against the private school families, them vs us etc and a feeling that you are giving a big fuck you to people you assume are richer than you. But actually it won't save much, may end up as a net position or cost more (eg if kids move to state and if the schools close) whilst messing kids and families around and setting people against each other- and people who have not actually done anything wrong.

Why don’t you just hide it

Do whatever you want with your toaster - just don't click threads you don't want to see - use your autonomy

I think it will cause a lot of SEN parents to apply for an EHCP and get the government to foot the whole bill of their kids school fees.

I was not suggesting that they are all going to leave, I was suggesting that they are already saving the taxpayer 4billion.

But if a third left then there would be no gain at all.

But if a third left then there would be no gain at all.

What evidence do you have that anything like this proportion would leave? It just has no basis in fact.

Ps I couldn't afford private school and am absolutely happy with my dc's state school - I.am not envious at all either and have no skin in the game.

I just think this is a shit tax/badly applied tax in the way it is currently proposed and would not make the gains people seem to think it will, while also not taxing those families proportionate to actual wealth - hence my suggestion that it could be means tested, some families of course are of extreme wealth but a lot are not. It needs a better application imo - either by making the private schools help the community more to keep the vat free status, or by applying the tax proportionate to the individuals means..

This utopian ideal that independent school parents will help raise standards in State schools is just pie in the sky. These parents will not be sending their kids to the underperforming schools, they will use the money they save on school fees to get a bigger mortgage and buy within catchment of the best state schools, or use it to tutor their kids to get into a grammar school. The knock on effect is that parents who can’t keep up with soaring local house prices will find themselves pushed out.

To say nothing of the fact that it’s pretty insulting to suggest that the 93% of parents who already use state schools are so ineffective at instigating changes in their schools that they need these mythical knights in shining armour to ride in and save the day.

@todayortomorrow

OK given that you would not support VAT on private school fees if it cost the taxpayer more than it raised here is the analysis:

The proposed VAT on school fees is estimated to raise between £1.3 and £1.6 billion in tax revenue.

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/#:~:text=In%202023%2C%20Ms%20Phillipson%20said,would%20raise%20%C2%A31.3bn.

However VAT on school fees is estimated to drive away 25% of pupils,

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/private-school-fees-vat-labour-b2531694.html#

So instead it would raise only £1.2 billion. However given that there are currently 615,000 private school pupils this would mean that 157k would then enter the state schools at a cost of £7,460 per pupil or £1.17 billion. Meaning the VAT would only raise £83 million.

This doesn't factor in many private school parents pre paying private school fees ahead of the VAT introduction.

In short VAT on private school fees would most likely end up costing all taxpayers money rather than actually raising money.

My neighbour is a police officer and his wife a nurse. Their only child was bullied terribly in state and they sacrificed everything to pay for private school. He told me in the pub the VAT addition would finish it for them. Perhaps those who are gleeful at the thought of this policy should consider families like this.*

Much as I sympathise with the plight of this child- moving them to private school was not their only option. Private school isn't magically free of bullying.
Plus people are not "gleeful" about this policy- just more concerned about the impact of this current government on the poorest families, than the plight of those who can find a spare £10k a year for private schooling. It's not an option for the vast majority of families.

Standard predictable and boring response. Repetitive threads on any singular subject in a short time frame are redundant, monotonous and purposeless. Add your opinion to the many, many, MANY other threads covering the identical issue. Use your brain.

Exactly and people who can afford mortgages and holidays over a certain threshold, also those paying TV subscriptions and those who buy expensive shoes. 😅

YEP

I wasn't suggesting that a third would leave - that is the level at which it would net out at zero gain. So it was more a demonstrative figure. So if a sixth left (circo 90 k dc ) then the gain would be half so 0.65 billion for example - your gains diminish each child that does leave.

What evidence do you have that less than that amount would leave. What figures do you suggest will leave?

Just don't stick around if you don't want to discuss it.

It takes longer to post this stuff than hide the thread

No one made you thread police- feel free to write on or read whichever threads you like, there is no need to be unpleasant

That’s the best idea I’ve heard all week.