To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

No tax proposal, from any party, in any election I have participated in (and I first voted in 1974) has ever added up once you dig into it.

I'm not really interested in the parties' future promises. I just want the current totally useless shower out.

If I was a private school parent I would be hammering at the door of my school to find out what THEY - who have had literally YEARS to prepare for this outcome- are going to do to help their paying customers.

Years. It’s called scenario planning. They should also have been planning for the loss of the laughable ‘charity’ status many schools have.
Once VAT is in, that will be the next thing that needs looking at.
Happy to support the schools that really are mainly charities but the ones using it for yet more tax breaks need to be addressed. Which, according to EVERY report, is all of them… bar about 3

They aren't going to lose charitable status because Labour dropped that as a policy once they looked into how complicated and expensive it would be to enact.
Most private schools are run on very tight margins so there isn't a lot of fat that can be trimmed unless you start making teachers redundant (unless you mean public schools such as Eton but they aren't the ones that will be impacted by the VAT policy).
If you support taxing education as a principle then you should support taxing other forms of education eg Academies are run as charities etc.

State schools have had to make cuts over the last 14 years. Perhaps it’s time the independents had a think about whether all their costs are absolutely necessary?

State schools shouldn't have had to cut costs, it is shocking the lack of investment in education.
At our school the surplus goes into providing bursaries and scholarships so these are the first areas that will be trimmed sadly. That's what making cuts will mean.

^If you support taxing education as a principle then you should support taxing other forms of education eg Academies are run as charities etc.*

Academies don’t have fees. I suppose you could add VAT to Academies but 20% of zero is zero. They would be able to claim their input VAT though

the main reason independent schools provide scholars and bursaries is because they have to show some public benefit to retain their charitable status, if they cut the very limited amount of public benefit stuff they do anyway it will be counter productive as they will no longer be able to be a charity

They didn’t have a choice. So cuts were made. It’s irrelevant whether you think they should or shouldn’t have to.

Independent schools get to choose how they deal with this new policy. if they decide to cut bursaries that is a choice they are making. They could cut other expenditure.

Yes they will still be a charity as they will still lease out facilities for free, offer free holiday clubs etc.
You can't have it both ways: to attack private schools and then at the same time expect them to give funds away. That's why there was an excellent article in the Guardian suggesting to scrap the VAT policy but instead make it mandatory for private schools to increase their charitable work.

Except as I've just said, many run on tight margins so the only way to make significant cuts is through making teaching staff redundant.

Exactly it’s just that on every thread there has been on this topic there are parents against the vat that say that cuts will be made by less scholarships, less bursaries and the school cutting all public benefit things it does like hire of facilities to local school. They can’t cut all of these and still be a charity. I don’t actually agree with vat on private school fees but facts are facts.

Certainly cutting staff might be one solution though it would be simpler not to replace leavers than run a redundancy programme.

Depends on the average turnover in each school. Certainly at DDs school there isn't a high turnover so you wouldn't get immediate savings thar way.

You don’t need a high turnover.

This has been on the cards for years. If schools haven’t planned for it and budgeted accordingly their governing boards haven’t been paying attention. Much like some parents.

Bollocks.
Labour were never in with a chance until 18 months ago so how can anyone prepare for something that hasn't been mentioned?
That's like saying if you re-mortgage or get a first mortgage then you should start budgeting for something that may or may not happen in 5 years time but at the time you take out that mortgage it hasn't even be mentioned.

It was mentioned in the 2019 manifesto. Now they weren’t likely to win that one, I agree.

However it’s 2 years since Partygate and not much less from Boris being kicked out and then Liz Truss. Labour were leading all the way through that (from Autumn 2021 in fact) and their lead has risen and solidified since then.

This isnt a surprise.

They already can reclaim input VAT, unlike private schools.

They’ve had 3 separate policies on private schools since 2019, two of which have been scrapped. How are private schools supposed to plan when they don’t actually know what the change will look like or how it will be implemented? The Labour Party are adding bits to the policy regularly (EHCPs where the LEA pays, state boarding etc).

VAT on fees has been mooted since 2017. The charitable status was got rid of but VAT’s been pretty consistent

That's why there was an excellent article in the Guardian suggesting to scrap the VAT policy but instead make it mandatory for private schools to increase their charitable work

What a great idea.

Agree

The Labour Party voted to abolish private schools entirely in 2019, so it hasn’t been consistent.

Their conference may have but it wasn’t in their 2019 manifesto. Adding VAT was.

So was abolishing charitable status. That’s been dropped. Their plans for private schools have been inconsistent because they are struggling to find a way to achieve their desire to destroy them.