To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

People come from many counties to use the independent and boarding schools too you know. They pay much higher fees than local students.

You can ignore a thread, there are many other topics on MN

Divisive in that it sets groups of people against each other.

It is possible to start a thread to discuss something without it being my most passionate cause.

What on earth do you think is disingenuous?

That sort of rhetoric in a debate speaks volumes about you.

3%? So not much and I believe it has been rising for last decade so Leunig’s claim private school applications are the second highest in history could still be correct.

How do percentage changes in enrolments map onto demographic changes for those age groups? I thought enrolment numbers were dropping across the board (for young children anyway)?

The % of patents who opt for private education is far far higher in London than in the rest of the uk, so any fall in numbers will disproportionally affect state school places here; the fall in birth rates will not therefore fully absorb the costs to the state of a substantial transition to state schools, and the impact on all parents in London will be significant.

around 18% of private places are taken by SEND pupils and it is a fair bet that the parents of such kids are the ones that scrimp money together and so are the likeliest to switch to state. The will skew the financial pressure on the transition from private to state, not least because the level of demand for EHCPs will soar (only 7% of private send kids have an EHCP).

The real losers will be London-based state school pupils; parents will take advantage of entry criteria to get their DC into the good schools, and the effect of SEND demands will put huge pressure on state resources/access to EHCP assessments and outcomes in terms of availability of places/the affect on increased proportions of SEND on state school budgets and operations. And private schools will no doubt withdraw from their current investments in collaborations with state schools, and the provision of facilities such as sports centres to local communities - much of which was established by private schools in response to demands to benefit communities in order to justify vat exemption.

Not saying that it is right or wrong to add VAT to education but there will be negative affects that will hit state school children, the extent to which is unknown, but rather like Brexit they will be irreversible. This needs to be weighed against the benefits of such vat impositions, which are - on most calculations - much lower than promoted in financial terms.

in terms of indirect financial implications, private schools currently provide an estimated £14bn benefit to the UK economy; there will be a substantial impact on this should private schools react by relocating to lower cost countries like the UAE (some schools already have branded schools established overseas).

The long term effects on social mobility and influential career-hogging is a separate ethical argument, but the ability of wealthy patents to get their kids into the best state schools will limit that potential benefit and may actually reduce social mobility for the very bright state school kids who are elbowed out of the best state schools.

Some multi-source data can be found here-

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/

YANBU...this labour policy is all about the politics of envy. I too read these threads and simply can't understand why anyone would be in favour of penalising parents who are already saving the state the cost of educating their child. A fair number of private school parents sacrifice holidays and so much more to afford the fees. They also likely pay for private school fees out of income that's already taxed at at the very top rate of 45%. But I suppose those posters rubbing their hands in glee don't quite understand how this works. The private secondary schools are the start, but University fees will surely become the next VAT target. I forsee an avalanche of future threads from all the current supporters of VAT on education when the universities are inevitably hit at some point in the future. I could never vote for this regressive and irrational version of labour.

Oh please can you all go away, we all know why these anti labour posts are popping up. It’s really obvious, condescending and pathetic. People should refuse to get in a debate with these posters.

Only parents with children already in private schools have limited choices. So whatever the economics of labour's windfall projections are, it can't last beyond the first 2 to 4 years and this, on a declining scale.
Parents who pay private school fees are a self selecting bunch. Anyone willing to pay a premium for education will always prioritise education. New parents may not be able to afford the more expensive school fees but they surely won't send their child to whatever under performing state school happens to be the closest. They'll divert the cost of the school fees to buying properties in the catchment area of the already better performing state schools and watch their house values rise, while getting free state education. Imagine the choices available with an extra 15 to 20k per child freed up to spend on paying down a mortgage each year. Labour's VAT on education policy will certainly help create even more property millionaires in desirable catchments.

this labour policy is all about the politics of envy

How does it work? I've seen this cliche trotted out so many times, but not had it explained.

This policy will put many private schools out of business and seriously harm children forced out of school at short notice when it is not always possible to find alternative provision. Just replace the word schools with children and see the difference in the debate. This won’t raise the money it says it will. It will hurt individual children immediately, force school closures in the short to medium term and in the long term create an
even greater divide as the number of independent schools reduces and is made up of the ultra wealthy. And yes well off parents will buy houses in catchments of good state schools.

My dc has additional needs. I work more than full time (this generating lots of taxes) to send them. Schools here are oversubscribed. The state school we were offered is in crisis. Every last penny is spent on fees - we live a very frugal lifestyle. I am now planning to take them out as I do not have an additonal 20 per cent. Then I will reduce my hours to tutor him myself and thus generate fewer taxes.

So as parents whose children will be impacted by this we’re not allowed to discuss it? Are you saying that people are only allowed to criticise Conservative policies on this forum? I wasn’t aware that you had to be a Labour Party member to join Mumsnet.

So people who are able to spare say £20K per child after tax need charity do they? We’re talking about removing charitable status. These schools are not bloody charities are they? Not in any stretch.

No we’re not talking about ending charitable status because Labour dropped that as a policy. VAT has nothing to do with charitable status. Some private schools are run as charities and some are not. They would all have to charge VAT under this policy.

I don't think VAT applies to any medical treatment.

Between 2010 to 2019 inflation was an average of 2.81% i.e. 28% in total. So that’s lower than the 24% fee increase. In other words, school fees increased below the rate of inflation. Suddenly whacking 20% on them is completely different and comes at a time when people have had massive rises in living costs. Plus we have had the bulge years for admissions across the state sector during that time period so it’s not surprising that private school admissions didn’t decrease. However, they are decreasing now.

You didn't answer my question about better ways to do this. What are they?

Private schools are not charities

Around 50% of private schools don’t have charitable status. In any case, the Labour Party have confirmed that they’re not planning to change the charitable status position. VAT and charitable status are entirely separate issues.

should pay VAT like any other business.

Private schools (unlike state schools) do pay VAT; they pay input VAT which they cannot reclaim. What this policy proposes is to change the position of output VAT; this is charged to consumers (parents), not the school itself.

Private medical providers, care homes, private nurseries etc are all businesses and don’t have to charge VAT.

Unfortunately I think you are confused on several issues surrounding this policy, which is unsurprising given that the Labour Party and mainstream media often give incorrect information and use incorrect terminology. This is the problem with this policy; many people have very strong opinions on it and yet don’t understand the basic concepts and legislation.

To be honest, I’m starting to bore myself with the amount of times I have to type this. They are NOT talking about removing charitable status. They’ve confirmed they’re not doing this. In any case, around 50% of private schools don’t have charitable status.

The amount of misinformation (fuelled by the language of the Labour Party) surrounding this policy is ridiculous. People are basing their opinion on factually incorrect information.

It’s not compulsory to read, or indeed go one step further and comment, on posts you’re not interested in.

We live in a democracy where free speech is allowed. People are allowed different opinions. Current opinion polls show that around 44% of voters are planing to vote Labour. The other 56% are not Labour supporters. Is that majority of the population not allowed to express their opinion?

It isn’t about charitable status. Lots of private schools don’t have charitable status. It is because, in common with most countries, the UK doesn’t tax education.

I completely agree - it’s all about ideology and envy rather than common sense.

I read somewhere private schools in Europe don’t pay vat - if it was such good idea why is this?

Given that their own cost analysis is hinging on the belief that; anyone who has to remove their children from private school due to the increase in fee's, is just going to spend all of the fee money they usually spend on something else which is VAT chargeable is deluded, I can't wait to see it fail to generate this kings ransom that they've already spent 10 times over.