To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Well said 👏

Tbh .. it will make private schools more only the rich can afford same as universities are going the same way .

You pay your money, and you make your choice.

But personally I can't imagine private school parents throwing their toys out the pram over their child being taught in a class of 21 rather than a class of 16, and sending them to the local comprehensive where they'll be taught in a class of 31, including disruptive and low achieving kids.

"Tbh .. it will make private schools more only the rich can afford same as universities are going the same way"

Private schools can cut costs by increasing class sizes. This will allow them to reduce fees.

Staff pay makes up 70% of expenditure in a school.

Private schools have plenty of scope for reducing staff numbers, as they currently have double the number of teachers per child than state schools.

But you can get as good or better education without private schools?

I went to state school and university, I’m a homeowner and higher rate tax payer.

Going to university being the default option isn’t a good thing. Apprenticeships and entry level careers with progression are what is needed.

60% of university students would probably be better served with an apprenticeship, all that’s really happened is everyone goes to university so everyone is overqualified and many people doing jobs they don’t need a degree for.

My degree should be a degree apprenticeship, it is a degree only profession. My best friend has a degree and masters and works at a job of equal grade to a 17 year old school leaver, but has 100k debt.

Private hospitals can absolutely be charities. Nuffield Health is. Also healthcare is generally exempt from VAT.

The argument against private schools for me is similar to that of grammar schools. They cream off the hardworking students with supportive parents, leaving comprehensive schools with a higher proportion of challenging students than they would otherwise have. spread the challenging students out between a load of positive peers and they’re manageable

Your logic is off. There are some very challenging students in the independent sector. And the challenging students in the state sector will not suddenly disappear because some previously independent educated children appear. And you are beyond naive if you think challenging children will stop being challenging because of those so-called ‘positive peers’.

Hence why I said MOST will still be prepared to pay - which implies some won’t. This was in response to the op which said that if all the private school kids went to state school then the idea would cost much more than it saved, but that was a totally unrealistic scenario.

But you keep coming back to it 😂

Getting a bit tired of the argument that an influx of sharp elbowed middle class parents will lead to higher standards in state schools... if only 7% go to private schools, it suggests there's already a sizeable number of middle class kids at the local comp, and it seems their parents' elbows don't seem to have these much-vaunted magical powers..,

But this is what we are paying for in going private... I wouldn't be happy with that at all. My children can be educated for free at state school, but I'm paying for small classes and more attention at private. If what was on offer wasnt better (IMO) I wouldn't be paying for it, I'd just send them back to state school.

Private schools have plenty of scope for reducing staff numbers, as they currently have double the number of teachers per child than state schools

says who? Again, the logic is off here. Private school charges, for example £20k a year per child with only 15 children per class. State school receives £10k per year with 32 to a class (* made up figures but you get my point) Private school requires (more than) double the money to be in the exact same funding position per child as a state school.

Private schools are not about to reduce fees by bringing in more children/bringing in more children and reducing fees. Classrooms have been built for smaller classes - no way are you getting 32 x 10 year olds in my classroom. Private school parents are not paying for 32 kids in a class. That’s the whole point. At primary they pay for smaller class sizes, wraparound care, co-curricular activities in abundance (frequently paid for on top of fees) and specialist teaching in art/music/drama/MFL etc.

Trouble is, people can say anything on the internet. How do we really know who has children in private school or not?
Fact is private schools are just rich people further causing inequality in society.

This policy is designed to stir up class politics and win votes. Nothing else…nobody spewing this shit is stupid enough to believe what they’re selling.

Financial gains, if any, will be negligible and there won’t be any improvements in social or educational equality as wealthier families will colonise the catchments for the best schools creating a new two tier system within the state sector. They will also continue with the expensive extra-curricular activities that preserve social distinctions, and have more money to pursue opportunities and networks in these spheres.

Also, lower income families need to have a bit more confidence in themselves than to think they need middle class kids and their parents to rescue poor performing schools. If you want something, go after it. Don’t ask someone else to do it for you.

I'm inclined to agree but then I also think state services should be vat exempt and they arnt. So its basically giving with one hand and taking away with the other. How much more money would these services have vat exempt...

I agree with this mostly . I have a 17 year old . I am definitely encouraging him down the apprenticeship route .

My point though it is a choice for the rich .

Great but this is like me arguing for the privatisation of the whole state education sector based on personally having a bad time at a state school and much better time at a private school 20 years ago. And if the state sector is better overall why do we need to abolish private schools- just let people spend their money on supposedly sub-standard schools.

Where to start with this ... Firstly it's just not true that the majority of boarding kids outside of London are military. I say this as a former boarder outside of London with many, many friends who have boarding kids. Where is your evidence?

Secondly how on earth would it be fair to tax tertiary education and private secondary education the same? The demographics are radically different.

Thirdly the old trope about the nurse and the police officer ... Yawn. This absolutely does not represent the majority of independent school parents but is absolutely the rank outliers used in the nauseatingly cynical petition I was sent by many of the above friends who sent their kids to independent schools. They had trotted out the tiny minority of BAME/regional accented parents to illustrate the hardships of independent school parents to try and tug at the heartstrings. This came from my absolute poshest, blue blooded friends - aristocrats/fund managers etc. They are the majority demographic at these schools but they know it's not a good look to complain about VAT themselves.

Yes, I did, Sherlock. To point out it’s yet another repetitive thread. I didn’t comment on it to engage with the issue. I have twenty other options of identical threads to do that.

Also, my friend is a teacher at an independent school. They are discussing cutting teacher's pensions to mitigate the VAT. Fucking appalling but not surprising.

@maddening I am tired of these threads popping up. Are they planted? 7% of the population choose private education.

The rest of us get stuck in trying to improve state education for all children.

My sympathies lie with the around 2 million children entitled to free school meals in England - 22.5% of the student population. This means their whole family income is less than one set of school fees.

Except that state schools with a bigger proportion of middle class children tend to have fewer difficulties recruiting and retaining good teaching staff, and often benefit from the money that middle class parents raise for the school - which can be considerable.

It's not as simply as 'having middle class children in a school makes disadvantaged children behave better' - it's not mechanistic like that. But the demographic of a school absolutely does impact on the way the school runs.

Why not just increase class sizes?

A bit like all the people who benefit bash?

@MNHQ

I think it is time we had these threads moved to an education board or a new subject started for this. Discussion boards are getting spammed by the same people/bots constantly and It is annoying a lot of people.