To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

I did, absolutely. I'm glad you're glad.

I am just trying to counteract some of the negativity you and others are spreading.

I think that's a big age range when you have a number of children in the same room. I'd be concerned about the older ones hurting the tinies.

In our nursery, I recall DC2 was relatively slow to walk, around 15 months. They looked huge among the little babies, and of course when they moved to what our nursery called Wobblers, they were able to play in a more age appropriate way.

I can't remember now what the ratios were but I think maybe 8ish children with 3/4 staff depending on the time of day? It was never a concern for us.

The 1950s wants you back.

"A normal mother? OMG!!!!

For goodness sake... traffic accidents in a handful of nurseries doesn't make the whole system unsafe.

What a narrative to feed new parents. My kids were very well cared for from 1 year old at nursery. I had every faith in the staff who worked tirelessly.

At a fundamental level, are babies better of at home? Perhaps. But let's not discount other factors. Lots of parents need to go back to work to keep the roof over their head. Lots of parents WANT to go back to work for their own mental health. Lots of people don't have support from family.

You sound like an anxious new mum, perhaps struggling with the idea of going back to work? If you don't think nursery is for you, that's fine. But please don't spread fear on others.

I wish I could unread this thread. My baby has been at nursery for 4 weeks now. He has to go in childcare, we cannot afford to pay the mortgage and bills without both parents working. What am I supposed to do?

The death of the little girl at nursery should never have happened as it was a safe sleep issue.
There should never have been bean bags in a baby room at all, and babies should never have been put to sleep face down or swaddled.
The fact that the nursery nurse was unkind, or they were understaffed, was kind of irrelevant - an unkind or stressed carer would not have caused a death if it wasn't for the corporate failings of unsafe sleep policies.
If the baby was left to cry to sleep on her back in a sleeping bag in a cot by the unkind nursery nurse she'd still be alive.

The little boy who choked seems more like bad luck.

What we're really arguing about on this thread is whether nurseries are emotionally ideal or developmentally beneficial.
To be honest I think both of those things are a bit irrelevant. Nurseries are an economical and practical way to care for children.
They need to be physically safe, and not cause any emotional harm. There don't need to be any social or developmental benefits.

Don't give it a second thought. You're doing the best thing for your family and I'm sure you child will be perfect safe and happy.

Is your baby happy to be dropped off and happy when you pick up? Clean? Looking well cared for?
Can you vary the times you collect?
Are the staff consistent? Group size small?
What percentage of staff are qualified? Does everyone have first aid?
Ask lots of questions about how sleep and food times are managed.
If you have to work, you have to work - just ensure you have the best care set up you can.

Zero guilt - actually massively in the minuses!

I don't think that anyone would disagree that there are varying degrees of quality between nurseries. Just like there are between childminders. And just like there between parents. And that children are vastly different in their personalities with some being naturally introverted and some being naturally extroverted. The tricky thing is ensuring that every child is in the best setting for them.

It is not better for a child to stay at home with a parent who is struggling and finding parenting challenging, or who is lazy and isn't interested in interacting with their child and providing them with age-appropriate stimulation or taking them out. The question whether a poor quality noisy nursery setting is better for that child is debatable. Equally all the arguments for a home type of environment that a childminder can provide become moot if the childminder is a poor one with a low level of education and no interest in child development or providing an interesting experience for the child, even if the child gets a few more hugs there than they might at home from severely depressed or stressed parent. An excellent nursery with good staffing ratios would indeed be even better for them. But not all parents could afford to send their child to excellent nurseries, or get them there on public transport etc, and we're heading into an abyss as far as the viability of many nurseries is concerned now that they are so underfunded.

I'd also question whether naturally introverted children with an excellent home life would thrive in an outstanding nursery day in day out for 10 hours a day as much as a naturally extroverted child would.. It doesn't matter how good the provision at the nursery may be, I'm not sure that being surrounded by lots of others and various members of staff, lots of full on energetic activities and noise, is the best place for naturally quiet children or those with sensory issues. It must be quite stressful for babies with those personality types. They'd be the ones more suited to the brilliant childminder with only a couple of other children to look after, and then maybe going to nursery for half days from the age of 3.

The issue is, how do you accurately assess whether a small baby is naturally more on the introvert or extrovert side? It's just so hard to know what to do for the best sometimes as a parent when you're looking for the right environment for YOUR child. I don't think it's as simple as a Nursery vs childminder vs SAHP argument. It's a bloody minefield.

Let go of the guilt and carry on doing what is best for your baby which is absolutely working to provide for them.

I don't work because I have to, I work because I want to so threads like this are able to roll off my back. It must be difficult to read when you feel like you have no choice.

Zero guilt here too.

I never understand the hatred for CMs on here

Notwithstanding that in any sector there are good & bad operators, childminder care is an ideal model. Its much lower cost than nurseries, meaning care can provided at better ratios while still providing a good income. It provides the ideal for young children of a single primary care giver. It requires the exact same EYFS as is delivered in a large nursery, and the same qualifications & DBS checks.

Where i live the childminders typically serve one school and do so on foot, with just a short walk at 8.30 & again at 3. Most childminders are parents themselves.

I never understand why anyone suggesting CMs might be better for younger babies is immediately slated as being against working mums?! Its still childcare, it just might be childcare that is slightly better for a baby than a large nursery.

You stay vigilant and carry right on. Vary your drop offs and pick-ups. Chat to other parents. Don't listen to the scaremongers. These tragedies could just as easily happen with a childminder - especially as they are one-to-one with their charges. Above all, don't worry!

All three of mine went to nursery as babies until 6, 4 and 4, and I had a really positive experience. Develop good relationships with the carers. Befriend them and take an interest in them. I remember the girl who was then in charge of the baby room and I hit it off so well that I used to go in and sit on the floor with her and chat. (I was usually one of the last parents to pick up because of my work location). I 100% trusted her and we are still in touch nearly 30 years later. Later when a childminding arrangement broke down, she minded my elder two at home for an academic year. She was brilliant.

My baby had reflux and this minder was so adept at catching her puke right back in the bowl lol - a skill I never mastered! Another of their carers was such a support when I was toilet training them (they were all frankly fucking awful to train!) - when she sadly moved on she said she had become so attached to my DC1 as they'd spent so much time together on the toilet training!! Still in touch and see her out and about.

Another of the minders (we are also still in touch) asked me for something, maybe sponsorship or something, can't remember, and I still remember her saying, "I knew I could ask you because you're one of the nicest parents"!

I had a great relationship with the owner too, although I did think sometimes she was quite hard on the staff - but it was in the interests of the children and the reputation of her business. I used to tell her that her fees were the best contraceptive I knew!

She dismissed one of the nursery managers once because she kept getting pregnant.... which was horrible and one thing I totally abhorred, and the girl won a settlement at IT - we had such a good relationship that she actually sent me a letter explaining what had happened and why she had gone.

Please don't let this thread upset you xx

Two cases too many!

paying a premium to expect legal ratio of 1:3 staffing is a reasonable ask

blaming staff shortages when paying for private childcare is not a reasonable excuse.

I don’t give a crap whether this is rare; it shouldn’t happen or ever happen again when you’re paying £70-£80 per day (or however much it is nowadays vs 5 years ago)

it’s ridiculous that anyone thinks “two” is an okay number for staff to treat children like this who are supposedly in their care.

I’m curious to know if the child was tearful at pick up. Mine always had red eyes, and on the verge of tears, despite them saying she had calmed down after I left, had naps, ate plenty, played happily.

I was always dubious and after 9 months of not settling in, I found a caring Childminder who was amazing in comparison (outings multiple times a day/ calm happy environment etc ) , child had never been happier to say goodbye on the second day. Also built lots of happy friendships with the other children (yes we were lucky as plenty Of parents/child prefer nurseries)

she was also 50% cheaper, sent photo updates throughout the day, lots of sensory activities and more opportunities to explore the outside world than stuck in a baby room, with maybe one trip or two in the small (same-old) outdoor baby area

But you think it's ok to slate excellent nurseries?

I know what I am talking about - I have had experience of both, which I have related here.

Where I live, most CMs are also parents. They serve more than one school and they drive.

My witch CM had children from 2 schools but she preferred the school my kids weren't at, and she regularly said so. She was dropping off and picking up from 2 different nursery schools and 2 different schools with varying times, and collecting from both at 2pm and 3pm so that the kids had to wait for her.

She left a little boy out in the garden and wouldn't let him come in to use the toilet so the child wet himself.

She told my two that they couldn't do any afterschool activities because she was "too tired" to pick them up. She picked them up one day from school with her DH, handed them chicken dippers in tinfoil with no drink, and put them in the car to go with her DD to choose a formal dress. My kids had to sit in the car and they were so late back that they missed their swimming lesson and I was frantic.

A school mum died suddenly and my kids were very close to her as she had children in both of their classes. She hated that they liked to chat to her after school. She called me in work and callously said, "you need to come and get these children because that [nationality] woman died and they're crying". I was friendly with the mum as well and it was such a horrible shock and the way the news was delivered too! The mum was only 37 and left three young children.

There was a heatwave in the summer and she promised to take the kids to the beach. They went all suncreamed up with their cossies on and so excited! She announced she couldn't be bothered to go, but they could play under the sprinkler in the garden....

She had so few toys/activities for them that I had to send boxes with them of their own stuff!

She built a huge new sunroom at the back of her house but the children weren't allowed to go into it. Thank fuck I didn't have my babies with her but people did!!

The other twat favoured her youngest over my child of the same age. I never knew the half of it until after we'd left. They were treated like shit. She was nicer to my older two who were a different sex and the same sex as her kids. My child was getting put on time out regularly.

CM was shagging my married neighbour and got pregnant by him, and broke up their marriage. Didn't tell me she was pregnant until I challenged her one day - kept her coat zipped up all the time. I knew because neighbour had told my DH. Neighbour was drug dealing as it turned out, got raided and jailed (we live in a very naice genteel neighbourhood!) I got my child out of that PDQ!!!

I finally lucked out on my third CM who was warm, motherly, did lots of activities like baking, took them out in the holidays and actually cared about her mindees.

Surely parents returning to work are able to decide which setting would likely suit their baby more?

I certainly don't hate CMs but nursery was absolutely the right choice for my baby.

People don't like to criticise nurseries because a lot of people are in a position where they have to use them. But basically, you're handing your kid to strangers. Some who might be in the profession because they like small children, many because it's a job that requires relatively low-grade qualifications, some who don't like children at all but like having power over people. Much like dog walkers or sitters. You don't know who you're going to get. I would use any alternative for a non-verbal child personally.

Babies do not die from being strapped in and suffocated at home unless they’ve been neglected.

the parent paying to expect a high standard of care of their child did not pay for their child to die from the neglect of this woman.

Do not compare accidents at home or road traffic accidents with child neglect at a supposedly “safe” environment . If the nursery death was accidental, unforeseen or unavoidable then you could perhaps have a point.
Leaving a child for 90 minutes, left to cry, strapped face down is not an accident

drivers who carry on driving have a choice. neglected babies do not!

Of course it should never happen! Children shouldn't be murdered by their parents either but how do you prevent all of these things happening? You can't. Everything we do every day has a risk factor. All you can do is mitigate against it as best you can!

I would 100% always use a setting where there were multiple people and not one-to-one. You have no idea whatsoever what is happening. At least you might hope that another member of staff would flag up cruel behaviour.

And handing your child over to a childminder isn't handing your child over to a stranger? Go figure!

Plus a hell of a lot of CMs are not doing it as some kind of 'vocation' or because they actually like children - they were doing it to make money while looking after their own children, who will always take priority!

I was replying to the person who downplayed it was only two in millions of children being cared for by nurseries .

if you are a parent who cared for your child, you wouldn’t murder your child so take those out of the argument . Same with another poster who compared the death to a RTA statistic. It would not stand in court so it’s not relevant

I’m specifically pointing out that 2 children who were expected to be looked after, should not have been treated in that way. No parent who hands over the child should think there’s a slight risk this child would be harmed by that person.

Yes agree. A nursery setting is safer because the lovely people who work there are unconsciously auditing their colleagues. Safer in numbers.

I actually felt more comfortable with a nursery rather than a childminder. In a nursery, there is (or should be) more accountability. More than one pair of eyes on your child. Eyes on the person who is caring for your child.

That said, I think the vast majorities of childminders and nurseries take good care of the little people in their charge.

My heart absolutely breaks for the families involved in these cases.