To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

There are a small number of the wrong people in caring and healthcare jobs - how they get in and manage to stay in with cruel dismeanors is beyond me.

I don't know what the answer is, maternity leave is now 12m so neither baby needed to be in nursery at such a young age, though I understand the pressure to get back to work.

Both cases you mention @Luxell934 are tragic, the nursery worker who put a baby face down on a beanbag deserves a prison sentence, that was a senseless act and clearly would suffocate a baby.

Are nurseries safe? Yes in the main, but I have seen wrong ratios too, so there are risks and they need unannounced inspections.

I don't know what the answer is, maternity leave is now 12m so neither baby needed to be in nursery at such a young age, though I understand the pressure to get back to work

Presumably not paid at a higher rate for all that time though?

In practice very few babies are in nursery before 9m.

This is such a mad thing to say. My DD has been incredibly sociable since she was a baby, loves spending time with other kids, ran into nursery, school, playdates, parties. She's also very securely attached to us, and is a very well adjusted and emotionally intelligent 10 year old. Clingy child does not equal secure attachment!

Then you don’t understand attachment.

Attachment doesn’t mean to just one person - it means through the example you set your child has a positive view of people and feels secure in being around them.

When children are adopted, those who had happy lives with their previous caregiver settle much more easily than those who were neglected who often struggle as they’ve been taught people are bad and will abuse them.

Both my DH and I wanted a stay-at-home parent at home during our DC’s most formative years. For us, it was non-negotiable. Endless craft sessions and swimming lessons in a private pool aren’t really necessary, and don’t make up for having a loving, invested parent at home during those early years. I wanted to stay at home with my baby/toddler because nobody else could have, or would have, been able to provide the love, attention and care that I was able to provide him. (I also realise that I speak from a privileged position because not everybody has the means to have a stay-at-home parent. People have got to do what they’ve got to do to pay the bills, mortgage, and put food on the table. But it doesn’t belie the fact that nurseries are not the most optimal place for the social, emotional and cognitive development of babies and toddlers. This is rooted in research.)

Thank you for your financial advice. Just before my son was born, we paid off the mortgage on our first house. We lived off DH’s income, and used mine to overpay. We still own that property and plan to pass it on to our DS. Hopefully, starting off in a strong financial position in his 20’s will give him and his partner the opportunity and choice to stay at home to provide care for their DC during those crucial, formative early years.

It is perfectly normal/usual for a baby/toddler to be distressed when apart from their primary caregiver during a first settling-in session at a nursery. It is more usual to be, than not.

Exactly my point. If you have embarrassing amounts of cash hanging around and financial independence then more power to you if you want to be at home and presumably you chose to continue that once your child was in school. That's your privilege. Who wouldn't want a life of beauty appointments, gym days and coffee mornings rather than working?! Let's be honest if we won the lottery, most of us male or female might choose not to work unless we were fortunate enough to work in our passion.

Not really the situation for most of us though and less still as costs of living rise. If you are beholden to another person and financially dependent on them, it's your choice but I don't believe that is great for parent or child. It creates inequality and all too often falls apart when one party doesn't hold up there end of the deal or resentment builds. Holding up nurseries as evil and the reason why parents should give up everything they have worked and been educated for is pure excuse in my mind and sends us back to the 1950s when women were unpaid servants and nannies in the home. Messy divorces leaving mothers destitute are most probably far far far worse for a child than attending a nursery for 4 years early on until school starts.

It's the relentless fear mongering and guilt tripping such as on this thread which keeps women feeling they must stay at home or else their child will be permanently damaged/not succeed. This is absolute rubbish to keep the status quo.

"But it doesn’t belie the fact that nurseries are not the most optimal place for the social, emotional and cognitive development of babies and toddlers. This is rooted in research.)"

@freshgreenmintleaves this is not fact, this is still your opinion based presumably on some very limited research, as a scientist myself I'm pretty good at sorting fact from fiction.

Where is your evidence? Show me the highly respected and wide scale studies consistently concluding all children attending nurseries for part of the day are psychologically damaged/disadvantaged and nurseries should be shut down? I just don't buy it.

Lol heaven knows how my youngest grandson classifies on attachment then. Kicked and screamed the first week in playgroup, since week 2 waved DD goodbye and ran in happily. Has he suddenly lost his attachment to his mother?

People don’t half talk shite when it comes to “attachment” and “attachment style”… dear god.

We are talking about a nine month old infant. You think there’s something wrong with a baby who isn’t settling in at nursery (the day she died was only her 8th session), away from her mother/father/home environment for the first time? That response is to be pathologised now, is it?

You think all babies of that age should be totally OK with being plonked into a busy, noisy, alien environment?

Add in being cared for by a cold hearted stranger who berates you for only napping for 20 minutes, chanting “Genevieve go home” and “You’re driving me bananas”.

I can hardly blame the poor little mite for being so distressed.

Exactly @Frenchielondon and @WhiteLily1 other countries have been much much quicker on the uptake but as usual in Britain snobbery and backwards thinking prevails.

You rather missed my point. The poster I responded to said a child who waved good bye to mum just fine no tears was not attached. I countered with so only a child who kicks and screams is properly attached? I was pointing out how ridiculous either argument is as both are extremes. Do keep up

She wasn't referring to Genevieve. I posted further up to say my daughter was very happy to go into nursery without any tears or tantrums from day 1- all children are different, but mine loved having the social interaction with other children- and freshgreenmintleaves told me that this showed my child wasn't sufficiently attached to me 😂The truth was that she was secure enough to know I was coming back and also had a lovely time at nursery.

The situation with Genevieve was entirely different. Of course the poor baby was miserable. :(

Yes I agree, to use your phrase people do 'talk shite about attachment'. It's mainly psychobabble rubbish and will be likely replaced with new theories and new terminology in a few years. You also missed my point. Poster I responded to said if a baby doesn't cry when separated from mum hey are not properly attached??! So by definition only one who screams and cries is..?! I am not talking about a 9 month old infant you are. What happened to Genevieve is terrible, reprehensible, and a very sad isolated incident, no one will deny that. But the title of he thread is "nurseries are not safe for young babies". That is what I take issue with because the over whelming majority of cases prove this not to be true. Out of interest @Jellycats4life , would you say planes are not a safe method of transport because there has been more than one death in plane crashes? Have you or your children ever been on a plane? I'm trying to demonstrate here perception of risk. You cannot say all nurseries are bad based on two very sad and awful but isolated incidences. That is lack of nuance. That's like saying all nurses are baby killers based on the sole evidence of Lucy Letby...or me saying well 30 children this year alone have died from accidents in the home when a SAHM was present, therefore being a SAHM is not good for children and too risky..do you see? Also you have proved you have no idea if you think babies are plonked directly into a 'noisy nursery environment'? There are settling in sessions over many weeks starting with a few hours, dedicated key workers, baby rooms with only a few kids all similar age, apps where you can check in on your son/daughter. Any issues and the process is slowed and reviewed. This has been my experience at two different nurseries and I have not experienced any problems. Granted not all nurseries are this good so instead of denigrating other parents choices along with some others on this thread and OP, how about you lobby the government to get all nurseries up to standard? Or perhaps you are only on here to be goady and justify your own stay at home choices by simple saying all nurseries are terrible eh?

Also @Jellycats4life isn't it ironic that you are so very forgiving on another thread where a mother basically screamed, shouted and swore at her child, not unlike Genevieve's nursery worker..but that's ok apparently because she's a stay at home mum right and baby in your words 'wont remember'?! You can't have it both ways. No child deserves to be treated like that by anyone regardless of what they did and whether the carer or parent is tired, Ill or genuinely just a crap person.

I hate it when posters do this. People are entitled to join in with a debate and to express their opinion. It just seems really nasty to go searching through their mumsnet history to try and discredit them. Not cool.

Agree.

Isn't it funny how it's much easier to forgive someone whose actions did not result in the death of a baby than it is to forgive someone whose actions did result in the death of a baby?

• If they start young I think it becomes their new normal and far less issues than being attached to mum at the hip in the toddler years then trying to go to nursery or day care later. My eldest adjusted to school really easily whereas those who had never been separated from mum much really struggled and had a much more traumatic time, how much damage must that have done when they are older and more aware?*

Sorry not sure who posted this, but this shows the misunderstandings around this whole thing imo.

It’s a combination of action and words isn’t it and whether those amount to neglect or not. I might mutter in disdain about my children, but I am always caring in my actions.

And for that reason you would never use a childminder? I’m not saying that this is right or safe but sometimes things like this happen. I was a childminder for 9 years and my accident book was full of reports of scrapes and bumps. That’s normal family life and that’s what my minded children’s parents wanted. Home based care with lots of experiences outside the home too. I was very successful and when I mentored new childminders, I always told them to childmind in public, know that they could be videoed and if they only wanted to be at home, then childminding shouldn’t be for them.
Both of my children were childminded full time from the age of 4 months old - the olden days of 18 weeks maternity leave. I had to work full time or we would have been homeless. Neither one is an axe murderer and we are still in touch with both of our childminders after 30 years.
I really hate the way women, in the main, make other women feel guilty about the choices they make.

It isn't the only reason obviously. I have seen other things. I don't really like the idea of my child being taken here and there. I worry about that. I prefer a nursery.

Totally agree and good to know your kids came out the other side of childminding unscathed as some of of the posters on here would have you believe they should be in jail about now as you weren't physically present every second of their 0-5 years..😂 I guess that was my earlier point. Rather than denigrating other parents choices to make themselves feel better, perhaps the people who feel so strongly that nurseries aren't great should be lobbying the government for improvements?

Sure - and some nurseries are great but in my experience as an NHS Childcare Coordinator I witnessed some poor practice and witnessed some super practice - both in childminding settings and nursery settings.

My own grandchild attends a small nursery and she is happy there. Would I prefer she was in a home setting? Yes, of course but her parents are happy with the care and she seems settled.
There is good and bad in all settings including the child’s own home but it’s hard enough going back to work without feeling your choice is dangerous to your child.