To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

Both these nurseries had been awarded Good grades at their most recent inspections, though Jelly Tots (Oliver Steeper's nursery) had been rated Inadequate in the past.
Yet the evidence coming out in court is that the nurseries were not good. At Tiny Toes, nursery staff have testified that it was badly run.
Ofsted failed to pick up on the problems and hadn't inspected either for a number of years.

The staff at both nurseries had concerns and didn't report those concerns. Was it because they knew Ofsted would simply descend like a sledgehammer, close the nursery and they'd lose their jobs?

There is so much pressure on settings to present themselves as perfect, and that's a result of the current autocratic system of inspection, which is punitive and lacks support. It encourages staff to cover up the flaws instead of reporting them.

As someone else said, you’ll get flack for this. Parents whose babies are in nursery from long hours, will find it too challenging and will bite back!

Probably the stick they will get from other staff members? Especially if they are young and inexperienced.

I recently viewed an ofsted outstanding nursery that was more like an institution. The baby room was rammed full of babies in bouncers or cots and very young looking staff (school leaver age) This nursery has just been graded as the best but I didn’t see one baby in arms.

How can they possibly know each baby that well when there’s that many?

What’s really interesting is all the anecdotes from people who have worked in nurseries. It seems really clear that the image portrayed doesn’t match the level of care parents believe their child is getting or expect. That’s so sad. Makes you realise you can do everything right but still be deceived.

Absolutely. We're sold the lies of the modern society that we can and should return to work before our babies can speak and now with rolling out childcare from 9m even more babies will be in nurseries at this vulnerable age. Mothers should be financially supported to not work until 2. Any mother who wants to work should be given better options than a nursery.

What makes babies and toddlers especially vulnerable is the fact that they can’t come home and communicate if some nursery worker takes a dislike to them for whatever reason, or if they’re unhappy for whatever reason. And adults taking a like or dislike to certain babies and toddlers (e.g., due to temperament) probably happens a lot more often then we’d like to believe. My DS was quite unsettled due to reflux for the first 6 months or so, and required a lot of soothing to settle. His was not the sort of temperament nursery workers would have gravitated towards, or would have had a lot of patience for. I did, because I was his mother.

Some people who have worked in nurseries or currently work in nurseries have also shared positive anecdotes but they were ignored by those who are determined that all nurseries are terrible.

No one has denied that some nurseries aren't good enough but some nurseries are also exceptional. Again though, parents who say that are either ignored, simply dismissed with 'well that's just unusual' or told they are just seeing what they want to see.

Yes, a bit like mums at toddler group having a cuppa and chatting with other mums and childminders. And not watching their children carefully enough.

"She was desperate for more interaction with other children" - at 14 months?

Honestly, if you say so I'm not disbelieving you (not sarky) but this is genuinely very unusual. Children begin to accept, perhaps 'enjoy', parallel play around 2 (sidelong glances at child next to them at sandpit) but true interaction comes much later, and before that only interaction with an invested adult is really sought.

I worked in nurseries/preschool for years and there was a clearly observable pattern, Before 2.5/3, most children tolerate one another (after all, here is another annoying small being who wants the same toy you do, who might get the attention you're after). By 3 things begin to change so gradually another small being, the same age as you, will be able to offer you something, like helping you build a fort with bricks etc. By nearly four, many children (not all!) will run into nursery seeking the friend they were playing with yesterday, to continue the game, or invent a new one. Finally, another child has become an optimum companion rather than a tolerated one.

But at one, or just two, very unusual.

that is 1 (utterly tragic) case. How many babies are killed by their parents each year?

That said I don’t think nursery is good for small babies. They need more attentive care than a 1-3 ratio can allow.

She's an only child so I can't say what's normal for that age, but yes, she was wanting to be around other children and, as I said, at baby groups I was having to constantly bring her back to "our space" because she wanted to approach other children. The first settling in session she was over the moon to get to join in group activities and when I dropped her off for her first full day, she skipped in happy as larry with a quick "Bye Mummy!"

With all due respect, a child who skips off during their first settling in session as “happy as Larry” with a quick “Bye Mummy” doesn’t sound like they have a very secure attachment with their primary caregiver.

That’s so beautiful to hear!

Sounds like you're looking for a herd to join. And maybe blame.

You've worked as a nursery worker in a nursery.

People should be coming to you for advice. Not the other way around.

Your child. Your responsibility. Your choice.

What the freak are we supposed to advise, when as a former nursery worker, you don't have a clue? Or any advice.

I don't put a hot drink down on the carpet and then not watch it which is what I saw one do.

My daughter was and is still like this. She is very much a mummy's girl! Not sure it is your place to decide.

What a totally ridiculous thing to say

I agree having studied child development.

Piaget’s child development theory supports this. Children are egocentric until about the age of two.

Between age 2-7
Furthermore, the child is egocentric; he assumes that other people see the world as he does. This has been shown in the three mountains study.
As the preoperational stage develops, egocentrism declines, and children begin to enjoy the participation of another child in their games, and let’s pretend play becomes more important.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html

My eldest also really loved the company of other children from shortly over a year. I wouldn't say it's that unusual.

I think they gravitate towards other children and their activities. It’s not unusual. Even if they aren’t playing with each other.

You seem to miss the point that the child in nursery still has that bond with the parent who they will see morning and afternoon and weekends as a minimum. And they will also have a key caregiver assigned to them. It takes a village to raise a child. My youngest son has an excellent key worker, he smiles at her and holds his arms for a cuddle just as he does for me. She also has two children slightly older who are in the same nursery as she works. I pay a lot for this nursery, it has a forest school and woods for walks, outdoor play area, an allotment they grow vegetables in, endless craft projects every day, swimming lessons in a private pool...I couldn't provide that at home.

Doubtless not all nurseries are equal and we shopped around and went for the very best we could afford. But honestly when people talk about nurseries on here it sounds like they are talking about prisons, my sons nursery is more like a luxury hotel! Incidentally my eldest went to nursery from 7 months 3 days a week, he's top of his class, despite being one of only two who went to nursery from a young age and now goes to wrap around care. No issues so far and pretty securely attached so not sure when we should expect him to turn into the maladjusted child/adult? I had so much guilt in the beginning especially with conflicting studies but honestly it wasn't needed. If they start young I think it becomes their new normal and far less issues than being attached to mum at the hip in the toddler years then trying to go to nursery or day care later.
My eldest adjusted to school really easily whereas those who had never been separated from mum much really struggled and had a much more traumatic time, how much damage must that have done when they are older and more aware? Noone questions men's decision to work do they? I'll guarantee that many of the SAHP are women, do their kids honestly have a rubbish relationship with dad because he isn't there all the time? It fits some peoples narrative to say nursery is awful and damaging as it confirms their decision to stay at home. A lot of the SAHP I see hated their jobs and were just looking for an excuse to give it up. "Ooooh I couldn't possibley put my child in nursery it's so damaging, I'm selflessly sacrificing my career for little Jimmy". Haha Ok then I believe you..But show me the credible properly designed research saying all kids who've gone to nursery are damaged and doing worse than those with SAHP? Also so many SAHP on here forced to stay with abusive partners because they have no financial independence and yet no recognition of how damaging this is for their kids. It breaks my heart when you see the threads...my partner's cheating etc what can I do I have no money, haven't had a job for years career lost, CV screwed etc, he's hidden all the family money or blown it etc etc.

Brutally, if you have your own money and can afford to be a SAHP then fine but if you are relying on your partner to fund your lifestyle and to stay at home, I would think very very carefully about that decision and your future stability and happiness of your family. It creates a massive imbalance and you could pay for it later..the stats say 1:2 marriages end in divorce after all, 50 percent isn't great odds. Just look at all the many threads on the relationships board with financially dependent women up the creek which absolutely speak for themselves!

I think a lot of posters are missing the point here.

”But most child deaths happen at home” albeit true, isn’t the issue.

The issue is that baby Genevieve’s parents had put her in the care of professionals, one of whom took an immediate dislike to her and killed her.

The issue is that we will never know the extent of low level mistreatment, neglect, cruelty and near misses that happen in nurseries nationwide, because the children can’t speak up for themselves.

I think you are missing the point, this also happened with several children in a hospital (Lucy Letby), will you now not use hospitals in case for your child? There have also been abuse incidents in schools, will you not send your kids to school in case? These incidents are indeed absolutely awful but perspective is needed.

Yes they parallel play to begin with BUT they do learn from eachother and copy from a young age, anyone with a baby and older siblings will know this. Therefore they absolutely do get something from being with other children. Also my baby smiles at other children he sees when we are out shopping from his nursery, there is clear recognition compared to other random children so I find it hard to believe they don't get something from the interaction.

So a child who screams and kicks and cries when separated from mum has a 'secure attachment' according to you? Wow. That sounds like an unhealthy attachment to me.