To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

I think nurseries are sub optimal for babies. This is no bloody judgement on mothers. I think a mother with mental health issues / a mother who can’t afford to pay the bills is also far from optimal. In fact, a happy balanced home is probably the most important factor (and so a happy and balanced mother).

For me this is political - we need to talk about how suboptimal the situation is because we need political change not individual judgment. There will be no change if we are scared to acknowledging that the kind of care our babies get is far from optimal.

Agreed. I also think that questioning the quality of care in nurseries does not necessarily have to mean being anti equality in the work place for women. In fact, I think campaigning to ensure that each and every child has access to good quality childcare (if their parents opt to use childcare) is only going to boost equality in the work place. All parents should be able to drop their child off in the morning and know that they are safe and being cared for by qualified, caring and knowledgeable professionals. The rhetoric of some nurseries are good, some are bad is not good enough. It would never be tolerated if we said that about other institutions such as hospitals and schools. I know that as the election draws nearer I will be asking my local politicians what they plan to do to raise the quality of childcare. No doubt I will get some bollocks answer but at least its a start!

SOME nurseries are sub optimal and nursery can be suboptimal for some babies such as those with additional needs or some medical conditions. But I don't agree with your statement blanket statement. It's the suboptimal ones that need further attention just like our schools system. And yes agreed this does need political intervention. Election coming up.. labour and the conservatives pay attention!

By sub optimal I’m referring to the research on cortisol levels I linked to earlier. It’s not as simple as saying babies are stressed at nursery’s and that has poor outcomes - the research simply isn’t there to make those claims. But it does indicate that cortisol levels are higher in babies at nursery’s than in home setting (all other things equal). And that is sub optimal in my book.

Well that's me told. Way to make any mother with physical or mental health issues feel like utter shit! And before anyone judges me for being a "suboptimal" mother who dared to have a child when I had physical and mental issues it was childbirth that left me disabled!

Fuck, quoted the wrong post, I was so annoyed. Apologies.

It's not questioning the quality of care which damages equality. It's the fear mongering, guilt tripping, blanket statements and false facts used to convince mothers only they are capable of looking after their child and that to send them to any kind of childcare is practically negligent. Therefore they must ditch their career as soon as they have kids, lose any pre-kid ambitions and get back in the kitchen and fetch slippers for their beloved bread winning husband, at least until each child reaches school age. That is what I am fiercely against. What I find worse is that this rhetoric so often comes from other women. We effectively are keeping ourselves down by insisting this. So much for 'girl power' of the 90s, it's more like back to the 1950s. If you choose to be a SAHP that's fine, but don't try to force your choice on others by blanket statements such as 'all nurseries are bad and not safe' when this is blatantly not true. Yes all nurseries should be an excellent standard of care just as all schools should be, but we all know that's not the case either. This is up to the government to ensure and I will be vocal on this with our politicians, just as I hope others who have a strong opinion on it will be. If you truly think nurseries aren't safe for babies, what are you doing about that? And if you say nothing because I don't use nurseries, well why are you posting on Mumsnet about it then if you don't care ..? If it's pure entertainment value for you, question your motives.

Flip top in - It was prob my earlier post… And ya I understand you being pissed off. I get it! I ve had my own issues. I ve had depression and anxiety for most of my kids lives. I think I have a handle on this now. I know I have always done my best. I know I have killed myself trying to be the best mother for them. And yet… my job is research. And I ve read the research on maternal mental health and impact on chn. I have to be ok with the knowledge that my issues have probably impacted my children. What’s the alternative? Justifying everything I have done that it is the absolute best for my children?! I know that’s not the case. But I also know I have done MY best in MY situation.

I think that admitting nursery’s are sub optimal (and my depression and anxiety is sub optimal) is important for thinking about change. I know that the research I read on the above was a factor in me getting help and medicating my anxiety.

Parenting is hard. I don’t think there is ever a truly wholly optimal childhood. And however bad it makes us feel (me included) I think looking at what we know about child development etc and reviewing our choices and our voting behaviour in light of this is really important.

@BeardyButton If you yourself are in research you will know full well that "Correlation does not a causation make". I have not read the study and will happily read it if you repost it as I cannot see it in the thread. I would be very interested to know their sample size, location, time of year (as this effects cortisol levels as do many other factors!) and what their control was they used to measure against, also how long did they measure for etc. There are so many variables that you wouldn't be able to control that it's a massive massive leap to use this to say all nurseries are suboptimal for babies! I'd also like to know who did the study and who funded it, how many studies came back with concurring results. Also what happens to kids cortisol levels when they attend school at age 5 I wonder?

It’s two meta analyses. Findings replicated and robust. Of course… all studies have limitations. And the way research itself is done (replication crisis etc etc) means nothing is ever proved. But - as far as I can see - increases in cortisol in daycare settings is fairly well established. What we can infer from that… that’s another question. The most recent meta analysis was particularly interesting on that point. A really good discussion of what the research does not prove etc. There was a discussion on how increases in cortisol may have some positive implications. Yet I do think that research is enough to think daycare settings as they currently stand (obvious generalisation here) are sub optimal.

Okaaay…re-write child development theorists…

Why don't you repost the link, let's take a look. I'm very intrigued how this has you so convinced all nurseries in this country are sub optimal. I noticed you have changed from saying nurseries to day care settings so I am guessing it's not actually been tried in a nursery per se and possible not in this country. My background is in biomedical science, I do enjoy critiquing articles on Pubmed.. 😉

How so @ArlaDae?

All I can say is what I'm witnessed working in an old folks home made me vow never to leave anyone vulnerable unattended.

At the very least just pop in unexpectedly every now and then.

I'm saw how easy it was to smile and grin at the moment resident and coo over the visitors and make all the right noises.
They go away thinking isn't this wonderful.. In reality it's understaffed and by people with little empathy and those with empathy were out numbered.
Food budget was ridiculously low, care low, but it was actually a really expensive home. And who, would tell you a relative about this?
People get defensive or don't care or think your a trouble maker.
This was 30 plus years ago. I was very young and I wrote to the times about it and someone picked it up and said they were doing a huge expose on it all but sadly it didn't come to anything.

People who can't talk and advocate for themselves are at anyone's mercy. One person maybe a saint and the next a sinner, the next, indifferent.

I believe children should ideally be left in a nursery environment only after age 2. My DD started at 2years and 3 months and my DS started at 2 years. By that time the kids could talk and tell me what was happening at nursery. I was of course lucky that I was able to stay home and do this but considering the cost of childcare and the fact that we live fairly remote it made more sense.

I would not be comfortable leaving a child under 1 in nursery. I think it is hard managing a child that age with patience even when it is your own child and I am worried nursery staff with multiple demanding babies on their hands would not be able to cope. I do understand that a lot of parents cannot afford to do this. But I would not be happy leaving such a small baby in nursery.

Babies under 2 should not be put in nursery, it's child abuse in my view.

I don't think social services or anyone sane agree with you there 😂

Well that makes probably three quarters of the mothers in this country child abusers. Right-o.

Just a thought: might be worth keeping your views to yourself until you can learn critical thinking skills and self-awareness. Your views don’t add much to this discussion.

Stress levels in unsettled babies and toddlers is likely to be much higher. However, if the nursery has good, consistent care givers the baby does learn to trust and be settled with them. Babies also make friends with their peers from a very early age and this friendship can follow them on into school and beyond if they stay in touch.

My main concern with nursery type environments for young children (under 3) isn't so much about the care givers. In the majority of nurseries the children are cared for by experienced, well trained staff who do care for the children in their charge. It is more about the lack of access to the outside world. Children who spend significant amounts of their waking hours in a nursery setting aren't getting to see the world they are part of. They aren't seeing shops and parks, adult environments and chores, they are seeing the inside of a space that is set up for children of their age and although it means they can freely explore this space and the resources in it - which is a good thing - they are also missing out on what grown ups do. They aren't learning to cook and wash up, do laundry, go to the shops, DIY, tending the garden, unless it is only play and not real. They are following routines and structures that are fixed and less flexible than they would be out of that environment because there is no option for one child to have lunch at 12pm and the next at 1pm because it simply isn't practical. They have to follow a routine that is set for them.

Personally, I think children who spend full time hours in nursery based childcare are very advanced in some areas. They are quite independent and they have learned a lot academically. However, I also find that they are very peer orientated, they don't really pay so much attention to adult requests and interaction as they do their peers. They make less eye contact with adults than children who don't do full time hours. They can push boundaries more within the setting, they can be less confident on day trips away from the setting and more apprehensive about change.

My personal take out from this is children who do the 15hrs at age 3yr + benefit enormously from nursery. Children who are babies and 2yo can be less settled but can make good attachments and friends in their peer group. All children will make good academic and school readiness progress. Too many hours in childcare can start to become detrimental to their understanding of the wider world and societal connections.

I know what you're saying and I think the geriatric care sector suffers more from staff turnover than nurseries as older persons tend to be much harder to deal with than babies and more likely to suffer with dementia and other psychiatric issues, which can make them violent (a close relative worked in this sector and was injured). Also and I hate to say this, but how many elderly persons in care are seen daily by their relatives? Whereas I see my child who goes to nursery morning and afternoon. If something is wrong I will quickly know in spite of the fact he cannot talk because I know him so well and my mum instincts. It's my job to advocate for him.. if something was wrong I'd be all over it. I do wonder how many parents who say nurseries are the devil have elderly relatives in care and are entirely happy with that situation?

Sorry but this is rubbish. my teen has had many mental health issues and I was a sahm until she was 3 and then she only went to nursery a couple of days a week. Ridiculous to try and blame teen problems on childcare. There is ALOT more to it than that.

I don't think there's the slightest jot of evidence for this. Utter nonsense

@Namechangey23 I really don’t have the time or inclination to sift through your realms of rambling nonsense, cut and paste, and address everything point by point. Some of your ramblings are just gobbledygook, and not at all underpinned or rooted in early childhood development theory; and other ramblings are not pertinent to the thread topic at all: you’re just all over the place. To summarise what I’ve said in my previous posts: most nurseries are safe, but they’re not the most optimal place for the social, emotional and cognitive development of babies and toddlers. The most optimal place is at home with a loving and nurturing caregiver (s) who is going to be attuned and responsive to the baby’s/toddler’s needs, and with whom the baby/toddler can develop a secure attachment. There was no one who could have cared better for my baby/toddler than I could have, and that’s why nursery was never an option for me. Furthermore, there should be no shame or stigma attached to wanting to care for your own baby/toddler at home, rather than outsourcing it to strangers. The end. I’ve nothing new or different to add 🙂.

Name change I get that you are very invested in this and you see a lot of this thread as a personal attack. I can see this by the winky faces you are using in your post. I haven’t made the claims you accuse me of… And I’m certainly not going to ‘re post’ because you demand it of me. I’m with you on the lack of longitudinal data - this is a widespread feature of research on children, as far as I can see. But yes the research I have seen on cortisol levels and nursery’s (or daycare settings more broadly) give me reason to think those settings are sub optimal. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be used. For me - parenting is all about making the best choices for our children in sub optimal conditions. But it’s also about acknowledging that babies in these conditions are likely more stressed than they would be at home (and yes that’s a jump from specific studies and yet the jump is more justified from the n=1 claim that ‘my baby thrives so nursery’s are doing a brilliant job’). And it’s about using what we know to
improve the situation for babies and carers.

Child development is very well researched and understood. Many studies, vast amounts of evidence over a long period of time…yet you know differently.

To support your views on nursery use, you give an example to show that Piaget’s theory of child development is not correct, yet it is very widely accepted by professionals.