To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

I only have one (through choice), so was able to give him a lot of 1-1 time, especially when it came to things like doing lots of reading (another thing that is a strong predictor of how well a child does in school, and a predictor of future educational outcomes). But even women with more than 1 child will space their children a couple of years apart and 1:2 ratio is better than some of the ratios in some of these nurseries that posters have described.

Exactly this - it is so bullshit to say that nurseries = worse outcomes for kids. It's such a damaging thought. No one is downplaying the 0-5 age, but surely babies in a reliable nursery where you got to know and trust the workers is completely fine. Look back in history, kids were shipped off to the countryside away from parents during baby years in working class families or to a "nourrice" all day for aristrocratic ones.
Luckily today, there is much more emphasis on the kids well-being and that means staying with their parents as much as possible, but it is completely false and dangerous to say babies in nursery from 1 year old are worse off down the line than those who stay with their mums. Like, really, think about it for one second @WhiteLily1 ; Scandinavia, France (yes, France, as it happens I'm French so that's what I know) all babies are in nursery. Do you think they are as a whole deprived of maternal love, form less secure bonds?
I want to be able to give my children a deposit for a flat, a good life, great vacations. I want to earn money for them, I want the intellectual stimulation of a job I like. I see the bond between my mother and I (yes, she shipped me to nursery full time at 4 months old to pursue her corporate lawyer career), and I am not worried about doing the same with my children. And yes, I'll miss them during the day, compress my hours to a maximum so I can see them as much as possible during the day, cherish all my
holidays, evenings, nights and weekends with them.
In the same way I think your choice is perfectly valid, so is the choice of millions of working mothers who use childcare.

I don’t love the fact I had to put both mine in nursery from 14 and 12 months respectively but it means I can keep my job and hopefully afford private education for them from age 11 (state options here are DIRE). I weighed it up and decided that as long as I was selective and careful about the nursery, their education was more important on a balance.

I was going to say, I have newborn twins. I also have a 17 month old so they certainly don’t get 1:1 care at home.

Your experience is not the norm, especially if there was no staff turnover, staff were nurturing, invested in their charges, and those ratios were consistent. Your childminder also seemed very good. But nurturing, invested, biological caregiver at home is still optimal.

The articles are horrendous. I would prefer to hire a nanny or look after my child but I simply can't afford it. What choice do I have? It's awful but that is modern life. Even getting 11 months maternity leave was a gift.

I've just explained why in my situation and for my child, it was not optimal. My daughter was desperate for social interaction and getting bored of the very limited range of experiences I could give her in lockdown. Maybe some children would have been happy with the same routine of the same baby groups sat on their own individual spots 2m apart, a walk to the park (when the play equipment re-opened) and whatever sensory play, art and craft, music and so on I could organise at home. She needed more stimulation and absolutely loved nursery.

In fact, I went back to work so my child could go to nursery, not the other way around. After paying for nursery, I was left with about £30 a week. I invested A LOT of time into finding the right environment and visited multiple nurseries and finally found the right setting at a farm nursery, which also happened to be one of the more expensive ones in the area. We didn't drive at the time, my husband did a 5 mile cycle twice a day to get her there for opening time and then to work in time, which was tight. It was never for our convenience.

I find the comment about "biological" caregivers quite disgusting actually, and very rude towards adoptive parents, same sex parents etc.

Adoptive and same sex parents are also optimal as long as they are one of the primary caregivers and have a loving, nurturing relationship with the child.

What about twins? Where's their 1 to 1 ?

I think part of the reason why this thread has been heated is because people have a different age in mind that is considered as baby. Then for someone against sending a baby to nursery, what age range do you have in mind?

Your life experience forms your views as does mine I guess.
I will never believe that putting a baby in a baby room with other babies and strangers (who have a high turn over) is better for the baby in both the short and longer term, than mum or dad or another family primary caregiver.
A previous poster was making fun of the importance of 0-5 years which was why I mentioned that.
im not sure what happens in France. Maybe the childcare provision there is better. Maybe it’s more valued and better paid? Here it’s very under valued ajd underpaid meaning a lot of inexperienced staff with a high turnover.

0-12 months primarily but also 12-24 months.

I had twins. It was 1:2 but they do the same things at the same time and you have two arms so it feels like 1:1 in many ways. Also have a singleton so can compare.

I value education too. Because I am a stay-at-home parent, I had the time to tutor and prepare my son for the 11 plus. There are no grammar schools in our area, but the neighbouring area has a certain number of out-of-catchment places. It is competitive; scores have to be nearly 30 points higher to get in if you are an out-of-catchment candidate. The grammar school has better outcomes at GSCE and A-level than our local £20, 000 plus a year private school.

I have twins, I also have a singleton. Having twins certainly doesn’t feel like 1:1 to me.

YABU bad nurseries are unsafe for babies/children but there are plenty of good nurseries too.

I am a former childminder, before that a nursery manager. At no point were any of my mindees tagging along, everything we did, from weekly zoo visits (we all had yearly membership) trips to the parks, soft play, swimming, play groups, library etc was for the benefit of all. I treated each of them how I would expect my own to be treated, I nurtured, I gave affection. The experiences and nurturing that my mindees had was as if they were with their own parents. Please do assume child minders do not put all children in their care first.

Oh you were lucky then. My friend had twins. They hardly ever did things at the same time. One would be fussing and the other feeding. Or one be sleeping and the other screaming blue murder. She also had an 18 month old when they were born plus a teenager

I’m glad it’s not just I that thinks this!

Mine were 2 years apart and my toddler was so demanding it was really hard keeping them both happy. I basically baby wore my second all the time. It was so tough getting either down for a nap or to sleep (I was by myself the majority of the time). I guess the benefit of nursery for my two year old at the time was all the children were in the same
routine and so their needs aligned rather than competing like by baby and toddler.

If I had two babies like my second child it would have been a breeze!

I couldn't agree more. As an ex-advisory teacher, inspector and assessor of nursery-based practice, I was often disappointed and saddened by the provision for the youngest children in the dozens of nurseries I had dealings with. These baby and toddler rooms were mostly staffed by the younger, less experienced practitioners as no-one really wanted to work in them. I'm not blaming the staff for the poor provision though: they were often understaffed and under-resourced, treated poorly by owners and management, and paid very badly. There were a few little gems that seemed to get it right but they were in the minority.

I wouldn’t have children just to put them in a nursery. It’s not for me.

I only let mine go to preschool and when they’re old enough to talk so they can tell me if they’re unhappy etc.

But I think you’re right, there’s every reason to be worried.

Thankfully these type events are extremely rare. Usually babies would develop confidence and thrive in a good nursery.
Ive worked in nurseries for many a year, and I noticed that the large chain nurseries are more focused on making money, and less focused on staff and the effect this has on the setting as a whole. In the large nursery chains I’ve worked at they think nothing of continuously adding new starters, staff are stretched to the max trying to settle as many as they can but it’s hard and extremely stressful. The large chains had high staff turn over and often had agency or young relief staff in to make up the numbers. Adding extra pressure to the regular staff that were in. I know this is just my experience and opinion but I’ve worked in three different chain nurseries and all very similar, and extremely corporate. I’d never send my child to one nor would I work in one again.
The private nurseries I’ve worked in have been worlds apart and in my opinion much nicer for staff and the children. Less staff turn over and more time to spend with the children.
The stories in the news are horrible I guess you can get bad staff anywhere, thankfully rarely, but I do think the working environment has an input. I’m not saying she’s not at fault though by any means, she deserves all she gets for what she did! I can’t get over that she was a deputy manager!! Terrible!

Had no choice but to put dc in to nursery before a year old. It was hard, I asked lots of questions, could see there were cameras installed and after a few sessions I relaxed more about it and the trust grew. Xx

I agree, should and could are different. Parents will explain what they are able to do and staff ime follow this, not assume. Children with special needs don't fit the NT mould of expected development.