To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

I don't think children have evolved significantly since the 80s and 90s...

You’re not wrong with your last paragraph, people read what they want to.

IMO it’s absolutely fine to assess, weigh it up and still decide to use childcare etc. It might be best for your family on balance. I went PT, I thought carefully and decided that was best for me and my family so both mine went to nursery 3 days from 1+ BUT I still recognise the downsides.

Also children aren’t all even. I never knew my first baby was a HARD baby until I had my second, I desperately needed help with my first and didn’t recognise actually how hard he was. I was really keen to get back to work.

My second is an angel, life goes on like normal with him in tow. Things that felt impossible with my first, until he was nearer 3, are just easy. It’s not the order they were born, it’s their temperaments.

Then you have additional needs etc. It’s just luck of the draw.

This is exactly it! I’ve done loads of things that are less than ideal w my kid. I ve negotiated situations where the best decision would still mean compromise - the choice is between bad and not great. But the difference is I can be transparent with myself about it. Sometimes I think with our kids… it’s like the responsibility to get it right is so heavy that we feel the need to paint this idealised picture.

In reality, a ten month old doesn’t need ‘social interaction’ and their increase in cortisol is worrying. The indications are that these settings are not ideal. They might be the ‘not good’ decision, when the only other alternative is ‘bad’ (maternal
maternal health, economic hardship etc).

I think if we have any hope of working towards a better alternative we have to admit that our children would be better off in other settings. That last meta analysis had some really interesting discussion points (though admittedly hard to get through the academic jargon).

“The choking incident seems to be a terrible accident. Both my babies were eating chopped food at that age.”

No; it’s another example of a poorly run nursery.

Staff were told this child could not chew and needed purées. The parents were assured this would happen. Staff repeatedly failed to give purées.
A significant number of staff had lapsed first aid qualifications. Parents had been told all staff were fully qualified in first aid.

It makes me sad that some parents (mothers most likely) could be reading this thread and questioning if they are doing the right thing by going back to work and using a nursery.

Literally just last week my 6 year old son walked past his nursery and sighed 'I loved it there'. He runs up and hugs any nursery staff he sees in the street. His key worker from when he was 10 months to 2 years made him a hand made scrap book with photos of him at nursery with thoughtful captions when he moved into the next room. He got so many hugs during the day, napped peacefully, ate a multitude of healthy foods he would have refused at home, and hung out with some kids who are now in his class at school. Many of the same staff are still there. They were never strangers and they very much cared for him. They should be paid better and valued more highly.

And I’d add to the point that policy doesn’t rely on an evidence base in the case of children. It’s even worse than that… we are not even doing the research. There’s a dearth of high quality empirical research on children, especially as we move through the yrs. Very little longitudinal research. We often don’t disaggregate the data (make children and female children). Makes you wonder…

Agree - it’s an example of poor communication in the nursery. Yes it might have been fine for ALL the other children but for whatever reason it wasn’t ok for that child and the parents had communicated that.

Why would it make you sad?! This is the whole point I’m trying to make!!! Why should you be sad about a woman reading a thread wondering if she’s doing right by her kid? Wondering if she’s making the best choice? Looking at the available evidence on the different settings and weighing up her options given her personal circumstances and coming to a choice about the best (or least bad) option? Isn’t that just being a responsible parent?

Why do we all have to have our choices constantly validated as being the absolute ideal for our children? Why isn’t it enough that we do the best we can in the circumstances we are placed? If we can admit that nursery’s are not ideal for children under 36 mths, we can perhaps work to change the circumstances wherein many (maybe most) women feel that that is the least bad option open to them.

Absolutely. I wish I had the mental resilience to have stayed at home with a toddler and baby. But I didn’t. I also wish I didn’t care so
much about my career and my independence as a woman, but again I do and I always think if DH drops dead how
will I feed my family if I SAH. That’s just my thought process.

So I did what’s best - admitting that was the best of the choices I had rather than optimal all round is ok.

Yh I agree - I think reading these threads it's just pages and pages of projection from mostly mums who are all making the best choices and decisions they can but feel unsure about them for a multitude of reasons. Then it descends into fucking sniping and it's depressing.

The article posted earlier in the thread is a really interesting nuanced look at the evidence - it was by no means a slam dunk that nursery or being at home is 'better' but a good look at the different factors and variables and the potential outcomes of putting your kids in nursery by number of hours and their age.

I think it's hard, parenting is the great unknown because your kids are a mystery your won't know the answer to until they are grown up. I'm a SAHM with my younger daughter ATM - will she appreciate it? Look back on this time fondly? Or will she resent me for not earning and setting a bad example for women? No idea! I've not met her as an adult yet and she'll have her own distinct ideas formed by my parenting but also outside influences from peers and society. Can't control it, but I'm doing what I feel is best for her at this time.

The key thing, whether we work or stay at home, is how we safeguard our relationships with our kids - do we listen to them? Are we wise enough to know when to help them and when to step back and let them work it out themselves? Are we open to acknowledging our failures and doing better next time? It's bloody hard, but that's the core no matter how your structure your family.

I think parents get criticised left right and centre for various decisions, and it is worth remembering that a lot of the time you are doing the right thing and making a good choice. Some nurseries can be a good environment for very young children. In our case, the choice to send our DC to this particular nursery, was certainly preferable to putting us into financial dire straits with all the consequences that come with this. We have recently been able to move house into an area with better secondary schools, for instance. I feel confident that this will have a very significant positive impact for them in future.

I wasn't thinking of parental leave. I was thinking of returning to the one-income model of families, where one partner is at home full-time. I am not sure that most women want to hand over half of their maternity leave to their DPs, and if they are breastfeeding that would not work, anyway as men cannot breastfeed babies! Those women who want to stay at home either full or part-time, want themselves to be the person staying at home. They have expressed the idea that being at home, doing things in the community etc is more rewarding and satisfying than a job - bear in mind most of us do boring jobs, we are not high-flying surgeons or barristers etc. I feel for men, who I consider are on the work-treadmill all their lives and we do need to find other ways of living that allow people to find satisfaction in their lives, rather than assuming it only comes from a paying job. Most people work because they need the money, not because they want to work. Freedom is bought by earning enough to to be free - which generally means, for most of us, escape from the treadmill. I can see perfectly well that women find rearing their children, working in the community, perhaps working from home on something that is a passion, would prefer not to be shoved into work and their children into nurseries because these things are the only things society values. I find the implication that looking after children etc is an unenjoyable chore (so men should have to leave their wonderful work-life to take part in it) a little joyless. Doubtless, many men would like to stay at home with the children, but it is not feasible with small babies. We have to battle against women being penalised for taking time off to have children, not make men do some of it and share the general disapprobation of taking time off for children - the current situation is arse-forwards: nothing we do is worth anything if we do not continue our culture by having children.

@Grammarnut I don’t disagree with what you’re saying but think there are a few issues.

Very few people breastfeed (I think it’s 6% that get to 6m - I fed mine until 8m and the other 2 years so I am not biased against breastfeeding here - I just know I was in the minority). We know that babies aren’t disadvantaged by being looked after by Dad rather than Mum, so taking breastfeeding out the equation shared leave would be a great way of helping men become equal carers allowing women to have equal careers.

Also divorce rates are very high, I am using married couples as that’s where we have data. I am sure separation of non married couples is also high. I personally think against that back drop it’s really dangerous to have most Mothers dependent on Fathers for income. We also know how difficult it is to enforce CMS which illustrates perfectly why.

I really think we need to move towards better quality childcare and seeing the value in childcare so it’s not just woman’s work. It should be parents work.

The talk of returning to the one-income model for families was never a reality for all families at any point in history. It may have been a reality for middle class families but working class women have always worked. I grew up in a working class background and my mother and my grandmothers always needed to work. My paternal grandmother started having children in the 50s and she continued to work in a shoe factory when her children were growing up. What is relatively new is the use of third party childcare such as nurseries.

I'm due to be sending my 1 year old to nursery next month and am not at all happy about it since I've heard about the two young babies who have died in nursery care - really seriously considering my options.

On the subject of men staying at home, I would be happy to return to work if my DH stayed at home with DS until he was 2. I've asked him several times during the past year, particularly as we struggled to find childcare. He has always said no, despite not being happy at work.

Early child development research has shown us that the 0-5 years are crucial in the social, emotional and cognitive development of children, and that the best way for that development to be optimised, and full potential to be recognised, is through a caregiver who can provide loving, nurturing care; someone whom a child can securely bond with, and attach to, and someone who is going to be a constant presence in that child’s day-to-day life. (Not someone who is motivated to provide care for money, and who may be there on Friday, but gone on Monday). Who is best suited to provide that care? A primary caregiver who loves the child, and has a vested interest in that child; that primary caregiver is almost always someone that has a biological link to that child (mother, father, grandmother, etc.), and is someone who has become attuned to the needs of that child because they’ve been primarily looking after them. Especially with babies and toddlers, no nursery worker is going to spend hours walking around with a baby if they’ve got colic or reflux trying to soothe them; or going to spend ages googling to find the best remedy to soothe irritated gums for a teething toddler; or going to give spontaneous hugs and kisses like a parent/grandparent would. They don’t have the time, the biological link or the vested interest, to do so.

Men shouldn't look after children because it is an unjoyable chore, men should look after children because they are also parents and need to take some responsibility, including sharing some of the career hit when a baby is born.

Like pp said, the vast majority of babies aren't breastfed as things currently are so it doesn't seem to make a difference. Of course, not all women wish to breastfeed either.

I would never want to go back to the one income model because it would almost always be women and it would be awful for those women who would wish to stay working.

I don't see the point of all this other than guilt tripping parents who need to provide a roof and food for these babies and kids?

FWIW I don't remember much of my first five years and my mum was at home with me!

My child's nursery nurses at her first nursery used to rock her to sleep at nap time. She had the same keyworker for the whole time she was there and he cried on the day she left (due to moving out of area). She came home with a huge card signed by all the staff with a photo of her with her friends.

Her childminder regularly contact napped with her, sometimes for hours at a time. She told us once she had managed to transfer my sleeping baby to her 18 year old daughter after 2 hours because she was bursting for the loo! The 18 yo went off to Uni but used to specifically arrange visits to coincide with the days my daughter was there.

Her current nursery is equally lovely, they know her extremely well, she always knows which staff are present on which days and she trusts them all. They pick up straight away if she's a bit quiet or withdrawn. Sometimes, they are able to get her to share something that's bothering her that she didn't share with us.

It’s not meant to guilt trip. It’s contributing to the debate on this thread as to whether or not nurseries are the most optimal places for the early development of babies and toddlers.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t remember much: it doesn’t belie the fact that crucial social, emotional and cognitive development, that is laying the foundation for future educational, mental health, social outcomes, is happening during those first five years.

Who old was your baby when you put her in nursery? During the first two years, especially, I find it hard to believe that any nursery worker could have provided the 1-1 care, attention and love that I provided for my baby at home.

@freshgreenmintleaves I know what your mean. But I do think we forget that after your first baby, no other child gets your 1-2-1 attention even as a Mother.

14 months. It was a 1:3 ratio maximum, many days 1:2. No different to a SAHM with twins or 2/3 children close in age. She is an only child, the only grandchild and a Covid baby. She was desperate for more interaction with other children; she was never short of adult attention.

I used to take her to all the baby groups and classes and she would try over and over again to get to the other children on the other designated "spots".

In my children’s nursery there was 1:2 ratio in the baby room and the babies had a key worker so they were with the same person every day.