To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

But how does pp 'know'they would have struggled 1.5y later... they'd likely have been older and ready for school at that stage anyway. Neither of mine went to nursery and both ran into school, so no problems with 'school readiness'.

That is one example.

If a parent stays at home, it is almost likely to be the mother.
If a parent goes part time, it is almost likely the mother.
If a parent asks for flexibility, it is almost likely the mother.

Like I said, I agree that it would be ideal but it isn't going to happen any time soon.

Clearly not all mothers or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So fathers are allowed to not be able to 'cope' with staying at home but mothers should just get on with it no matter what?

Got it.

Where did I say "ALL"??!

I also never said "cope" 😕

Sorry, my mistake.

You didn't.

Though the fact that most mothers may want to be SAHM's is irrelevant to mothers who want to continue with their careers.

All deaths of infants are terribly sad, but they aren't terribly common.

Are nursery settings ideal for babies - no, but I don't think they are usually unsafe. Not more often than households.

I do find the "don't talk about the whether dycare is good for babies because it makes mothers feel guilty" bizarre. We do what we have to in the circumstances that confront us, but as a society we can't make the changes that make it possible to make better choices unless we know what choices might be better.

I was a sahm with my first child, because of intense vulnerability and medical need. So, I did not have a choice to make, except hiring an actual nurse for childcare. I stopped working, then was self employed 6 hours a week, then 8 hours, until dc was well settled at nursery and it was clear that we were over the issues.

I went to baby/ toddler groups every day, sometimes twice, partly to introduce dc to lots of stimuli, partly because being at home with a very vulnerable baby terrified me. We were far from family etc, so I made us a community. All lovely.

Tricky with dc2. All straight forward health wise. I imagined using a nursery and working. We needed the money. Then it came to baby being born. Dp said her didn't want dc in a nursery. It didn't feel it fair that dc1 had me at home until 3, but baby would have "nothing" (so untrue though, we just needed to look then and have her name down etc.

But I went to so many things. I saw so many childminders. I did not like a lot of it. Just having tea and ignoring babies, telling off toddlers who had been hit for hitting back, making out that they were violent and badly behaved when they were defending their wee selves, shouting at babies, and one v hideous time, I watched a grown woman BITE a baby. Because the baby bit. SMH.

We still have not decided what to do, but I am vv wary of the home setting idea, because babies are so vulnerable there.

And you would know whether you liked spending time with small kids or older ones BEFORE you had them exactly HOW??

Nobody knows for certain how you will take to parenthood until you've had the kids. After that you can't return them

I have done. And attachment theory has no links to attachment parenting.

Also, John Bowlby was writing in the 1950s and 60s when childcare was a very different thing to today and the vast majority of families had a stay-at-home mother.

Bowlby has also been comprehensively discredited. In the 1950s they were trying to reverse the progress women made doing "men's jobs" in WW2.

Bowlby's research paved the way for more responsive attitudes to young children when the prevailing ideas had their roots in the Victorian attitude of avoiding closeness or "spoiling" babies. I believe that the studies also fed into the research on RAD. However, it was definitely "of its time". Good nurseries today have responsive staff who know the children well. My daughter has strong attachments to her nursery teachers and trusts them to take care of her. There's also evidence to show that girls are more likely to go on to have fulfilling careers themselves and boys are more likely to take on a more equal share of household chores when their mother works.

Anecdotally, I've dated "men" who had stay at home mothers and I would tend to agree that the bulk of THEIR development happened prior to the age of 5. I would hope that my daughter will develop quite a bit further after age 5.

Why did she work in a nursery if she couldn't cope with babies?
She didn't have too.
Hope they do the same to her in prison.

Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. 99.9% of people in any group are not brilliant. Probably more like 20% are brilliant, 30% are very good, 40% are adequate, 5% are poor and the remaining 5% shouldn't be anywhere near children. I say this as someone who has worked with children. As with any role, there are plenty of people who shouldn't be in it and can put on a very good face for the parents. Often it's the ones who are most charming who you should be worried about the most.

As others have commented, nursery isn't the ideal setting for under twos. Ideally, they should be looked after by their primary caregiver, but what choice do most parents have. They need to keep a roof over their heads, so I don't judge them.

There is a real ignorance of children's development and needs, not just on this thread, but at a societal level. We don't want to face the truth, as it doesn't complement society's desire/need to have everyone in work, paying taxes, and keeping a capitalist economy churning.

My son too never went to Nursery or child minder ( Worked from home) and aged 4 went to reception class at school and loved it!

I definitely think pre schools for a few hours is a good idea, they start teaching children to read and write, and toddlers socialise with other children so they are far more prepared for reception. Otherwise the shock of full time school can be too much for some children.

The choking incident seems to be a terrible accident. Both my babies were eating chopped food at that age.
The other one is awful and I'm so glad that woman has been found guilty. But she is one in millions of nursery practitioners. There will always be that one doctor, teacher, nurse, carer, mother, father.... Doesn't mean that your child isn't safe at the doctors, hospital, school, home.
I've worked in a nursery for 30 years. Never have I seen babies treated cruelly and, if I did, I would report it. I don't really agree with children attending nursery every single day full time but a few days a week can be very beneficial for children. The babies in our baby room are very happy.

This last paragraph you have written is spot on and what I have been trying to say on this thread.
Our capitalist society needs new mothers to work. Houses and food are so expensive and everyone is intensely encouraged from a very young age to buy ‘stuff’ So many things set up now particularly families to spend lots of money on. 30/40 years ago there was so much less and people expected less generally. Old hand me downs for clothes, home made food rather than pre made stuff and walks in free places or a visit to a friends / family for weekend / school holidays were all the norm.
I honestly find it worrying and baffling that posters are minimising and making fun of the importance of 0-5 development. Just shows a real ignorance of how vital this age actually is.

No one is making fun of 0-5 development. People are just saying that children can be just fine in a nursery setting too.
Look, if you want to stay at home for YOUR child then you do just that. Don’t pat yourself on the back and think your choice is better or think that anyone will be able to pull your child out of a line up in 15 years time as someone who obviously had a SAHM.

I grew up in a Scandinavian country where children have been in childcare for generations. I went to nursery myself 100 years ago. It’s not a society full of neglected children!

A woman I knew who worked in a nursery once told me that the staff where she worked were only 'nice' to babies that they knew personally. Made me feel so uneasy.

I’m not sure about safety. And I can completely understand the need to use nursery’s… but they are FAR from ideal for babies.

The research on cortisol levels indicates that the younger the baby, the less ideal a nursery is for their stress levels.

There’s some interesting research on the babies ‘larger ecology’ and cortisol. My reading of this is that if the home is high stress, then a nursery setting will actually moderate cortisol levels, but if home is typical, then nursery will heighten cortisol.

I had to work! We needed to use childcare (a childminder/nanny) but I know my baby would have been happier/less stressed w me. I get the need for nursery’s/childcare in general, but the ‘my baby thrives at nursery’ is bs and I think we all basically know it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0885200606000421

I only see links to research done in the 80s and 90s and probably in the US. Is it the best you can do?

The one I linked to is a meta analysis.

Another meta analysis that shows findings are replicated and robust (in general).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0885200622001429

Its a complicated picture - very few longitudinal studies done to understand the effect of heightened cortisol so perhaps babies being stressed isn’t impactful across the life course. But the evidence does suggest daycare settings heighten cortisol in babies. And that, in my opinion, is not ideal!