To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

The high price of housing contributes to the shortages. With more reasonably priced properties, people move on and/or up and more properties come on the market, thereby keeping the price lower. I don’t know what the answer to that is but it’s a pity it couldn’t have been nipped in the bud years ago. It’s the same with rental. There used to be loads of houses to choose from, but now there are hardly any so the price is a lot higher.

You mention older single person households and ‘two parents having to work’ but in my circle there are many single mums who are younger. I stayed at home until my youngest was school age. I know many two parent families where one of the parents doesn’t work when the children are young and then go P/T. It’s do-able. I still think the gov should support it though.

Absolutely. We need to look how childcare is funded. The current free hours system is destroying the quality and consistency of care. If you pay less per hour of childcare providers will look for savings, it’s one big race to the bottom.

We need to properly fund free hours. We need to think about whether means testing is needed to direct the help to where it’s needed most, whilst perhaps including some tax incentives to help higher earners. we need someone to come up with an overhaul of the system that puts quality of care at its centre. BUT we do need accessibility for all otherwise women generally pay the price with their careers, and by inference, financial independence.

Of course, but the early years are crucial and if a person can’t/doesn’t want to care for a child of that age, then they shouldn’t have them. It’s no consolation to the child if their parent is great with them between the ages of 13 to 15 but crap with them when they’re younger. There’s nothing wrong with not liking younger children or finding them boring, but in that case the sensible thing is not to have children, or maybe foster or adopt older children.

The sensible thing? Really?

You can not like the baby stage but still be an excellent parent. The baby stage is a quick stage.

I don’t think it’s sensible not to not have children at all simply because you aren’t a baby person. Men do it all of the time.

It is also impossible to know what it’s actually going to be like until it happens.

I was a private nanny and nursery nurse before I had my own children and I’d never trust a nursery with an under 3 year old, lots of the nursery nurses are straight out of college and have never interacted with a baby before. It’s truly shocking. They are lovely young girls mostly with the best of intentions but really shouldn’t be allowed to be un supervised. They are fantastic with the three year old because they a full of energy and enthusiasm!

Absolutely this!

I never said years 0-5 aren’t important, but in my opinion, things aren’t as black and white as saying that 0-5 matter and everything else ”pails” in comparison.

Personally, I think a good parent is someone who dedicates time, energy and resources to their children from birth to adulthood, who shows them love and understanding, and who can serve as a role model for their children as they find their place in the world. Sadly, as I’m not a millionaire, that means I still need a career. And that means I use childcare four days a week.

I can see your position is also deep rooted in personal experience, and so is mine. I’ve struggled and worked for everything I have - my house, car, wedding, university (before funding was a thing). Never got a penny from my family, even though they could easily have saved some money to help me find my feet in adulthood. Even a trivial sum would have reassured me that they actually cared about my success in life, and wanted me to thrive, rather than only caring about me as a baby/toddler, when I was “theirs”, so to speak.

My point being, I don’t think money equals love, nor do I think women should “sacrifice” their careers and livelihoods purely to support years 0-5 with little regard for all the other years of parenthood. I believe the best balance, for most people, is somewhere in the middle.

Some of the comments on this thread are utterly appalling. The OP is absolutely right to read those horrific news stories and question if nurseries in this country are safe for young children and fit for purpose. Every single parent in the country (not just Mums) should be questioning this. It is not about your career, it is not about whether you believe children should have a SAHP, it is most definitely not about what parents do in France (what is the mumsnet obsession with France?). We should be lobying the government to raise the standards of childcare by firstly making working in Early Years a well paid, highly skilled profession and by cracking down on nurseries who are treating ratios as a mere suggestion rather than a requirement.

Are you saying that babies arn’t fragile?
The very young and the very old are the most fragile amongst us!?
Yes absolutely it matters what decisions parents make say to day and longer term- it’s 100% affects the child and of course that applies to where the child spends a large portion of their week and who with!

That isn’t what she is saying though.

God this is terrifying. I guess you need to do your research and trust your judgement. I feel like my son's nursery is very good. His older brother who is 8 went there and many of the staff are still working there and have children who go there which is always a good sign.

I agree with this. But that discussion isn't going to happen for as long as comments such as feeling sorry for babies in nurseries, stating that mums should give up their careers or not be mothers at all, stating that working mums don't raise their children etc continue because people are obviously going to react.

If it’s a quick stage, then it’s no hardship to stay at home during that time, is it? 🤷‍♀️ It’s not really about preferences - which age child you prefer. Preferences are fine, but if people can’t deal with looking after their own child when they’re young, they should think carefully about having children.

No, no-one knows exactly what having a baby is like till they have one, but surely people have a reasonable idea? Lots of the ‘dislike’ of babyhood stems from misogyny and insecurity. Caring, playing, interacting with a baby is ‘boring work for daft women’. Yes, SAHM parents are looked down on (when are they going to get a proper job, etc), but that whole attitude, that whole dismissal of the importance of caring for babies and young children is part of the reason why we have problems with nurseries. It’s seen as a job for the slightly dim, a job for (mainly) girls barely out of their teens, a job which is worth a pittance in pay.

Value parents who stay at home to look after babies. See it as a crucially important, admirable and worthy job. Then those who can’t stay at home will be able to use nurseries with staff who are well-trained and valued and well-paid.

Why assume it would be a woman? Men can parent too: shared care would be the ideal.

I think it's find to find the baby stage very difficult and at times really boring. That doesn't mean you're a bad parent. But you still need to recognise that it's a vitally important stage, and you can't just outsource all of it until they get to an age where you like them more. The first 3 years are tough, exhausting and can be very dull. But they are the most important in terms of life outcomes.

Agreed. Solid attachments are formed 0-3 years.

But you still need to recognise that it's a vitally important stage, and you can't just outsource all of it until they get to an age where you like them more

Who is outsourcing all of it? People are using a nursery for the hours when they are working

Parents? Or just mothers? Because it is mothers who are judged far more harshly than fathers for daring to want to have careers and are quickly deemed to simply never want to look after their own babies.

Most mothers are at home when they have very small babies on maternity leave. Most mothers go back part time so most 9-12+ month olds once maternity leave typically ends aren't in nursery full time anyway. Plenty of time that still involves them looking after their own baby.

Even if they are in nursery full time, it's almost as if mornings, evenings, night feeds if still applicable, weekends and annual leave don't exist. Not to mention how many more work places are flexible now since Covid.

And well over 80% of all children are securely attached to their main caregivers, despite most of them spending at least some time in childcare. There is no evidence that "attachment parenting" is more likely to lead to secure attachments.

Isn't that what men with wives who are SAHM's do?

Read the research.

It almost always is a woman.

Men can absolutely parent too and I agree that shared care would be the ideal but I don't think it will be reality, not without a massive societal shift.

Disagree. I shared the care with DH 20 years ago. Insisted that I also wanted to work so we shared.

Mothers are more likely than fathers to want to be the primary caregiver. I know this doesn't sit comfortably with the radical feminist worldview (which, by the way, is not true feminism), but it's true.

(Waits for someone to come along and share an anecdote that apparently proves the opposite: "I'm a mother and I wanted to work while my husband stayed with the kids!" 🍿)