To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

I commented on this case in another thread. The whole thing is horrifying. I’ve been aware of the case for some time as I live locally and the putting my son in nursery at 11 months was terrifying.

I still believe it was the right thing to do. To have given up work (and by implication the career I have spent 15 years cultivating) would have put us in significant financial pressure. It’s hobsons choice.

i can’t understand why everyone isn’t focused on what we can do to increase quality in childcare provision. Surely, this would allow for more choice, decrease inequality for women, assist child development and (most importantly) eradicate cases such as this.

Finally, some of these comments are in incredibly bad taste. Imagine being Genevieve’s mum and reading through this thread?

A little girl died when she choked on her lunch at nursery. She was 9 months old. Just awful.

What Roughley did was not an accident.

No it isn’t.

You can’t moonlight in many professions, teachers, lawyers, accountants.

Of course- I was commenting on something else upthread but messed it up. No offence intended.

None taken!

Family, friends, kids at the park and at playgroups...

I'm not making an absolute statement that in every case it's better for a child to be at home. There are many circumstances where nursery is necessary and helpful.
Just simply that the need for babies to "socialise" as a justification for nursery is very often exaggerrated. Babies don't NEED to socialise with dozens of complete strangers every day.

So have you saved enough money for them to get on the property ladder in possibly the worst housing market yet? Have you saved for their uni fees if they need them so they’re not in tens of thousands of debt before working? Or for money to start their own ventures? Can you help them travel, marry and save for their futures? Or are the “needs” of your children only present during ages 1-4?

Or Option 3, which the vast majority of parents take, find a childcare solution which best suits the temperament of the child you have and work around that. Many children love nursery, the company of other children and the range of activities that a household- particularly a household with one income- is not going to be able to give them. There are bad nurseries just like there are bad schools, but we don't assume that ALL children are better off being home educated because SOME children don't get on well at school.

Disagree all you like. This wasn’t forgetfulness, or a mistake, it was a positive act which she didn’t have to do which she did which resulted in the death of the baby. Even if I had 20 babies in my care, this would never have happened. The worst that would’ve happened is they would’ve had to stay crying in a cot for a few minutes longer than I would’ve liked while I saw to another baby. But nothing on this earth would’ve made me do what she did.

Of course, I was terrified leaving my first child in nursery. It’s a normal feeling and obviously cases like this don’t help.

We are top floor of the setting. We do a chain of the staff going down the stairs where we pass the babies 1 by 1, they go straight into a fire cot and they are wheeled away from the building. We can get 36 babies out in 3 minutes from the alarm going off

My kids are in childcare.

"There is now overwhelming evidence that daycare causes children to have abnormal cortisol levels, probably increasing the risk of behavioural problems like aggression, fearfulness and hyperactivity." I wonder if there could be a link between behaviour in schools and children going to childcare very early? Of course, I'm not saying that every child going to childcare is going to develop anxiety or behavioral problems, but even if only 1 % are affected by being separated from the parents at an early stage, that's an awful lot of children. I'm not being judgemental here - many couples need 2 wages to keep a roof over their heads - but for those saying that they need to go back to work for the sake of their mental health, perhaps working out methods for staying sane while caring for your babies might mean your child's mental health (as well as your own) might be safeguarded.

I’m not suggesting she should be held less accountable, but that the nursery should be held accountable too.

The point is that nurseries should be safe spaces with trained caring staff.

These two examples demonstrate that that isn't the case. They aren't "accidents" they are wilful neglect from people who should know better and are paid to know better. They are in a position of trust.

The "babies die at home" argument is specious.

Baby rooms are no substitute for a living care giver that can give sole attention I feel sad for babies that are put into a nursery. Until my child can speak they won't be having anyone who isn't me or a close family member that loves him If they can't speak they can't tell you

There are also bad parents! You only have to see the news reports to see the way some parents treat their children :(

I wouldn't put mine in childcare until they were old enough to tell me about anything bad. Even then I was very careful having worked at a few preschools that I wouldn't have wanted my kids at because the staff just weren't that nice (apart from to parents faces). I was fortunate that I didn't have to work though.

I think if you’re a good intelligent parent committed to socialising your child and aiding their development via baby groups and lots of play, home is best.

If you’re a pretty crap parent who just plies them with pouches and CBeebies so you can go on your phone, a good nursery is best.

It's far from a settled science, and whilst there are some negative effects, there's also a lot of positive effects.

https://www.familyandchildcaretrust.org/long-term-study-following-4500-children-links-childcare-better-outcomes

"The ability to name different objects such as a chair or a shoe, was found to improve with higher levels of childcare in a childminder setting or informal childcare such as that provided by friends. The same association was not found with childcare in a nursery or playgroup setting. The more hours of childcare in a nursery or childminder setting children received per week, the less common it would be for children to be worried or unhappy. Children were also more likely to share toys and show empathy for others the more hours per week they received of childcare in a nursery or similar setting. Children who received more than 35 hours per week of childcare in nursery or childminder settings were more likely to lose their temper and act aggressively. In childminder settings, such children were less able to regulate their emotions and remain calm.
These children who experienced these negative effects made up only a small minority in this sample, representing only 3 per cent of the 4,583 children studied. Additionally, they were five times more likely to have started receiving childcare in their first year than children who received 35 hours or less."

Hardly conclusive in either direction.

The most important needs are absolutely age 0-5! How can anyone not know that? Saving for uni or other such stuff pails into insignificance - and thanks coming from someone who loved going to uni!
Get those years wrong and there are huge life long consequences for the child far worse than not having money for a mortgage or uni!!

Exactly.

It’s funny how that is ignored.

You seem to have a very strange idea of how fragile children are. The difference between a "good" early years experience and a "bad" early years experience isn't happening because loving parents are making one decision or another in the best interests of their family, regardless of whether they choose high quality childcare or to be a SAHP. There is a fairly large body of research which has come to precisely no definitive answers about whether it is better or worse for children to attend childcare, but common sense tells us that it will vary between children, parents and childcare facilities.

@Kitte321 completely agree with you, many of us need nurseries so let’s focus on how they can be improved. For example, finding ways to increase pay so that staff stay longer in roles or having more ad-hoc inspections. There must be ways to improve things.