To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

But you can have a career and also be with your child. It just means finding alternatives- for example- since having our children we have been able to get promotions and move up the career ladder but it involved us working opposite to each other. It meant losing time as a couple, working Christmas Day etc when we could have found 9-5 jobs that offered us an easier routine. It is about choices.

If you are already top of your career when you have your children you can’t just change it. I can’t choose to work when my university is closed! My career is my career, as is my husbands.
We made some slight changes (he starts earlier and finishes earlier, I work 4 days) but there was no way to work opposite hours.

I was lucky I guess in that my child´s nursery had a very low turnover of staff. My daughter had the same main carer from start to finish every year. She now still attends for the "days without school" as wraparound care. She is 5 now, so July will be the last time she can attend. Nothing to do with the horrors described by some.

These threads don't have to be about bashing each other. It's possible to point out that there are flaws in a system without posters taking it so personally. Of course, there are good and bad nurseries. It's important that we look at why the bad ones are the way they are, and how parents can spot the issues - particularly when children are not verbal and can't say what's happening to them.

By the sound of it, the nursery culture influenced Kate Roughley.

That’s not to excuse her actions, but there was a reason for them.
The evidence is that the nursery was badly run and struggling to cope with the number of children they were expected to care for. Kate herself was alone with 10 babies at one point - 10 babies!!!

I’ve seen people questioning where were the rest of the staff.
We know where they were - exhausted, over-worked, paid a pittance while they tried to provide care for the children.

More to the point, where were the owners? Where are they now and why is Kate Roughley the scapegoat?
There was far more wrong here than one rogue nursery worker.

Very much so. She was not solely to blame. The owners should have been in the dock alongside her.

and those on maternity leave 😁

See my childminders for DD2 ( who was also a neighbour and friend of mine) used to take 2 kids to one school , one in infants one in nursery and same to a second school. Then lunchtime she'd be back to both schools picking up the younger kids. Then 3pm back to both schools again for 3rd time that day to

collect older ones.

So the baby she had there did 3 round trips to 2 schools each day

Yes she WAS solely to blame. This wasn’t a nursery worker who, exhausted and overworked, momentarily took her eyes off a baby who put something in their mouth or had an accident. What she did was tantamount to murder - you literally couldn’t have designed a more dangerous sleep situation if you tried. Nothing made her swaddle the baby, or lie her face down, or harness her, or put a blanket on top of all that to cover her from head to toe. That poor mite was effectively cocooned to prevent her moving. It was a positive dangerous act, not a mistake or a forgetful moment.

I’m sick to death of women being excuses for everything on here ‘because it can’t possibly be just her fault..’

I work in crime and have seen thousands of defendants. Female crime often has a streak of cruelty, selfish and cunning to it and they are NOT put up to it by men, it’s quite off their own back a lot of the time.

Absolutely not. You know nothing about me wtf? I did not marry rich! I wish! Its been waiting, sacrificed and putting the needs of my babies over my own wishes, not marrying rich 🤣

And part of this, once again, is lack of public funding caused by government cuts.

In past years, my LA had a team of early years advisers, qualified early years teachers, recognised for their expertise, who quality assured, advised, trained and supported providers. They carried out safeguarding and SEND support visits. EY providers were accountable but also onboard with working yo continually develop.

This was based on the needs of the youngest children being non verbal and the EY profession being mainly younger and less well qualified than school teachers.

I carried out that role for a couple of years. Practice in our nurseries was mainly fantastic, but I saw young children outside with open gates, young children unsupervised in and out, babies sleeping in a cot with blind cords hanging over it, lack of care around health and arrangements for sleep.

The Early Years Adviser role has gone in terms of quality assurance, support and development. Budget cuts mean the LA cannot afford to have this role.

Exactly this! Any issues with the nursery are in addition to what she did, they didn’t cause it. The systematic problems within that nursery didn’t cause her to put that poor child down in an obviously unsafe way and ignore her for 90 minutes - in the same way the pressures of the NHS didn’t cause Lucy Letby to kill those babies (I appreciate there’s differences - murder v manslaughter - but the comparison is there). The problems within the nursery existed alongside her cruelty, and probably why she felt she’d get away with it (similar to LL).

Children don't stay as babies though. Sometimes parents deal better with different age groups

Totally disagree. She was definitely culpable but the situation where one worker was looking after so many babies should never have arisen. If the nursery had proper policies in place it wouldn’t have been allowed to happen. Even if that meant sending children home.

It was clear during the evidence that there were not systems in place to keep children safe. There were not enough staff and they were not well trained. Unsafe sleeping was normal and not corrected by more senior staff/owners. Charging the owners would not lessen this woman's sentence - but the people who allowed this to happen are also culpable.

There were six cots and 10 babies. It was reported that they regularly used the beanbag as a sleep space.

Fair enough, but just so you know, babies really don't NEED socialisation beyond their immediate family circle. For the first few years, socialisation is not the main priority. Attachment is much more critical.

But that didn’t make her put that baby swaddled and face down. I completely agree the nursery need repercussions but they’re not to blame for her cruelty, their lack of safeguarding and procedures just gave her an opportunity.

John Meehan, Genevieve’s father, said: “We will never forgive the callousness of Kate Roughley’s actions. She was entrusted with the care of our daughter, yet she put her own convenience and selfish interests above Genevieve’s life.
“She treated our daughter with cruelty and contempt. Knowing what she had done she could have taken responsibility and saved our family from enduring the horror of this trial.
“However, such a basic act of decency was beyond her. Instead she has lied and lied and lied throughout, and sought to deflect attention to anyone but herself.
“She has shown no remorse for Genevieve’s death. Her expressions of sorrow during the trial were as insincere as they were insulting.”

That’s fewer than die at home though.

Utterly heartbreaking

What if they don't have an "immediate family circle" ? Just them and an isolated mother?

My daughter is an Early Years Educator and the children and babies thrive under her care, and the care provided by her colleagues. They wean and potty train, take instructions from parents regarding the length of nap times (and adhere to them), and feeding preferences. There is CCTV in the rooms, and parents are given daily (sometimes hourly) progress updates. Hers is a vocation. She absolutely adores her job, and the children all love her.

This has really affected me today, I wish I hadn't read it. Fucking horrific, that poor, gorgeous little girl and her poor parents, I don't know how they're functioning to be honest.

I'm just about to go and pick my little one up from nursery and will hug her even tighter.

And no, I don't think nursery is the best place for under 2's unfortunately, but I'm not comfortable with a childminder or nanny either and I have to work.

All you can do is research and visit before you pick one and keep an eye on your child when you go to collect/ drop them off and hope for the best- which is bloody horrible.

This woman is not a scapegoat. She's a murderer, even if the official charge was manslaughter. What she did was evil. The child suffocated and screamed for help for 90 minutes and was ignored. She tightly strapped a 9 month old face down so she couldn't move an inch. Clearly she already had a grudge against this innocent child. The nursery managers should be prosecuted for unsafe practices but that is a separate issue. It's disgraceful to try to make excuses for this vile excuse for a human.