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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

792 replies

Luxell934 · 20/05/2024 20:25

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

Nursery nurse is convicted of killing nine-month-old baby girl

Nine-month-old Genevieve Meehan was also tightly swaddled and covered with a blanket by Kate Roughley, 37, who put her to sleep when she was in her care at Tiny Toes nursery in Cheadle Hulme.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

OP posts:
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PoppingTomorrow · 21/05/2024 12:03

Pottedpalm · 21/05/2024 09:03

You see, offence can be taken at anything, if you are so minded.
If a baby is the second or third child then they will obviously spend tine ‘tagging along’. The ‘real families’ was to distinguish between a birth family and the childminder’s family group, not to imply that one child does not comprise a real family.
But I suspect you knew that.

Yep, especially after 16 weeks of little to no sleep, and this news story giving me nightmares. Had enjoyed being able to let go of the FTM anxiety a bit but this case and this thread have really fuelled some anxiety.

Pleaselettheholidayend · 21/05/2024 12:05

Mrsdyna · 21/05/2024 06:27

https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4

I think some will benefit from reading this article.

This is a fascinating read, much more nuanced then the usual political bun fighting over childcare/SAHP.

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:11

Couldn't agree more, @Luxell934

A local Nanny or good, baby focussed child minder is much safer.

Nurseries are too big to give babies the focussed attention they need.

purplediscoblue · 21/05/2024 12:17

MariaVT65 · 21/05/2024 08:24

Each to their own. No way would i leave my kids with a CM until age 4 or 5. They don’t provide enough stimulation at that age and it’s highly likely your kid will be spending the day with babies instead of peers.

@MariaVT65

ill have you know though that my child is in a group of however many children 98% of them are her own age as I am aware that she will send 98% of them off to school at the same time as we are aware that 98% are currently two going to be 3 this year but again you assume you know everything. Some child minders go for babies but are you aware of ratios and allowances to numbers in certain age groups? She also absolutely does provide enough stimulation as she provides the same activities my nursery does. She provides everything that reaches their needs of development and evidences this to get an OUTSTANDING ofsted review. But I can sit an argue this all day long but I won’t waste my time. You’ve got your opinion your last comments were wrong and not evidenced where as I have sent my daughter since she was 10 months old she’s now 29 months old and thriving. She has learned so much and is even now talking about her emotions but you reckon she’s not stimulated?

so I’ll have you know she is within her own age group and she does get stimulated. I wouldn’t write without knowledge. This is all uploaded and evidenced for us to see.

have a wonderful day Maria.

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:17

Pleaselettheholidayend · 21/05/2024 12:05

This is a fascinating read, much more nuanced then the usual political bun fighting over childcare/SAHP.

Hardly a surprise- {The age outcomes}

Babies need their mothers or a nurturing person - not a nursery.

{What other animal species hives off its very young to others?}

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 21/05/2024 12:20

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:17

Hardly a surprise- {The age outcomes}

Babies need their mothers or a nurturing person - not a nursery.

{What other animal species hives off its very young to others?}

well, actually lots abandon their young. Have you ever observed ducks? They often lose their young and the ducklings happily regroup. Ones local to us, one mother ended up with 19 whilst the other was relaxing…

purplediscoblue · 21/05/2024 12:22

@MariaVT65

just one more thing. I’m grateful and happy and would much prefer to have my 2 year old in a relaxed comfortable place environment rather than throwing her in to a class room based environment but thats me. They go on fun stimulating days out lax she provides activities that I’d see and do see in my nursery. She has a full designated play room all kitted out and a large garden. So again you don’t know everything and some childminders might be shite but I know mine isn’t

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:24

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 21/05/2024 12:20

well, actually lots abandon their young. Have you ever observed ducks? They often lose their young and the ducklings happily regroup. Ones local to us, one mother ended up with 19 whilst the other was relaxing…

Birds aren't Mammals. Cuckoos leave others to raise their young.

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 21/05/2024 12:26

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:24

Birds aren't Mammals. Cuckoos leave others to raise their young.

You said “animal species”

hjrl · 21/05/2024 12:26

@oakleaffy whilst I agree with you, as in nursery was not for me at all.

Animals do operate childcare, ducks as PP mentioned, sheep, cattle.

If you look at a field of grazing cattle. Two max stay with all the babies, the rest head off to graze, sleep, eat. The one or two in charge stand guard and alert to danger.

Sheep take turns to watch older ones and will mother a newborn happily and even steal in many cases.

I'm sure there will be more.

hjrl · 21/05/2024 12:27

But I suppose that's maybe what you mean by nurturing person, like their aunty or whatever.

freshgreenmintleaves · 21/05/2024 12:27

Just think of all the daily interaction, and stimulation, a nurturing, loving caregiver has with their baby: the number of times they caress/cuddle them, hug them, kiss them, talk to them, skin/eye contact whilst feeding and talking to them; as well as playing little games like peek-a-boo, blowing raspberries on their tummy or whatnot. This is how babies bond and attach and feel secure. This interaction/stimulation all contributes to the wiring and development of the brain. There is no way paid caregivers in a nursery setting with a large number of babies in their care can ever replicate that.

DontWannabe · 21/05/2024 12:28

Porpoising · 20/05/2024 22:26

@NuffSaidSam good nurseries - I don’t mean OFSTED good either - will benefit babies.

That isn’t to say they wouldn’t get the same benefit from their parents, but repeatedly insisting that they are of no benefit at best and harmful at worst is a little provocative.

I really hate it when people use a horrible tragedy to push their own beliefs and narratives. You don’t like nurseries: fine, don’t use one. It isn’t fine to keep repeating over and over that parents are deluded if they think it does their child good.

I'm curious to know in what way you think babies benefit from nursery. Inspite of my points below this is not a rhetoric question. I can't think of any benefits that are purely for the baby or do you mean a happier homelike because it might make the parents' life easier? This is a very valid point of course but I was wondering if you are thinking of anything once we take the parents out of the question.

I think, there's plenty of research that shows what babies need the most (after the basics of food, shelter, safety, etc) is to feel secure, loved and mildly stimulated. This is not easy to provide in a nursery setting due to the number of children and staff turnover. It is much easier to provide at home (unless the home is abusive) or with a grand parent or any single person looking after the child. No baby benefits from having less time with their (benevolent) caregiver or having less attention. Babies developmentally dont need to socialise. If they do socialising very regularly with a small number of people is great but that is not what happens in most nurseries. At best sharing a room with lots of other kids will not harm them but I think for many babies it is overstimulating and maKes them feel less secure.

A good childminder is worth their weight in gold and I'd say better than the most excellent nursery. We had a fantastic childminder. She had 3 kids of a similar age. She didn't do school runs but she took them out every single day to either the park, stately house and gardens, farms, etc. She closed due to health reasons but even now 6 months later dc Still fondly remembers her and the other kids. It wasn't perfect. He barely napped there because she didn't have a proper set up for napping. He had lots of accidents and often csme home with a split lip. We had to provide food every day and when she was ill he had to stay at home but I do think that a good childminder fulfills what a baby or young toddler needs more than a nursery. After her we tried 2 other childminders but we didn't feel he was safe with them so now he's at nursery (and hating it).

From age 3 I think kids do benefit from nursery because of socialisation , structure, and all the craft and educational activities they do but not before that. Before that nurseries and even childminders are just a place to send kids to because you need to for whatever reason.

Both of my kids were in nursery from age 1 because I had to return to work and I have friends whose babies joined earlier than age 1 because they had to go back to work earlier. So my point isn't whether parents should use nurseries or not because most of us don't have a choice but purely about what would be best for babies if we didn't have to work.

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:31

hjrl · 21/05/2024 12:26

@oakleaffy whilst I agree with you, as in nursery was not for me at all.

Animals do operate childcare, ducks as PP mentioned, sheep, cattle.

If you look at a field of grazing cattle. Two max stay with all the babies, the rest head off to graze, sleep, eat. The one or two in charge stand guard and alert to danger.

Sheep take turns to watch older ones and will mother a newborn happily and even steal in many cases.

I'm sure there will be more.

These are within sight and smell of their mother and can join her.

A mother Cow separated from her calf is a distressing sound.

SprinkleofSpringShowers · 21/05/2024 12:37

Farm animals, pigs especially are notoriously bad mothers. They often sit on their young and even eat them.

User0224 · 21/05/2024 12:38

I’d like to know how many of the people criticising others for using nurseries spend their “mothering” days whacking ms rachel on and sticking their babies in a bouncer…

SouthLondonMum22 · 21/05/2024 12:39

oakleaffy · 21/05/2024 12:31

These are within sight and smell of their mother and can join her.

A mother Cow separated from her calf is a distressing sound.

But we aren’t cows, we’re humans. We do many, many things that other mammals don’t do.

I’m not distressed when DS is at nursery because I know where he is and I know that he’s well cared for.

shearwater2 · 21/05/2024 12:44

I think it's possible for something awful to happen with anyone else looking after your child or even yourself or your other half. With nurseries there can be too many children and a diffusion of responsibility, with a childminder you are relying on an individual, a grandparent or other relative may be slow to react, be out of practice or do outdated stuff. Even as a parent you may have a lack of judgement when you are knackered.

I had two lovely childminders and that was absolutely the right setting for DDs, we only had two because we moved house before having DD2. Also the local day nurseries were only rated "satisfactory" then so must have been doing the absolute bare minimum.

SplitFountainPen · 21/05/2024 12:44

User0224 · 21/05/2024 12:38

I’d like to know how many of the people criticising others for using nurseries spend their “mothering” days whacking ms rachel on and sticking their babies in a bouncer…

As if anyone who actually enjoys having children is sticking them in a bouncer infront of a screen all day.
The risk factors for that sort of neglect are when there's been no attachment formed, commonly due to damage from early separation..

It's messed up that nursery workers bringing up strangers children whilst parents pop by in the evening and weekends is viewed as normal by some.

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 12:46

Grammarnut · 21/05/2024 11:45

A bit of a sweeping statement. Many years ago a friend of mine had her second baby die in his cot. She had done nothing wrong, but felt guilty all the time I knew her that she had not gone up in response to his crying - which we all do. Cot deaths are nothing whatsoever to do with what happened to the 9mth old being smothered, where the caregiver actively harmed the child - it's manslaughter, she did not intend to kill but she was reckless as to her actions.

Where the hell did I mention cot deaths? Most manslaughter/murder of babies is done by parents or their partners

DrPsy · 21/05/2024 12:46

PoppingTomorrow · 20/05/2024 21:02

Could you link to that research, or a summary of it?

As a FTM due to to back to work in 6 months I had decided on Nursery for my baby because my second hand knowledge of childminders is that a baby will basically end up tagging along with what the older children are doing

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0885200606000421

https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/daycare-can-lead-stress-life

Daycare can lead to stress for life

Raised cortisol levels before children even start school can have long-term consequences, says Dr Aric Sigman

https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/daycare-can-lead-stress-life

caffelattetogo · 21/05/2024 12:48

It's especially difficult for babies, as they can't speak up if someone is being unkind, so the parents are unaware.

Samlewis96 · 21/05/2024 12:49

freshgreenmintleaves · 21/05/2024 12:27

Just think of all the daily interaction, and stimulation, a nurturing, loving caregiver has with their baby: the number of times they caress/cuddle them, hug them, kiss them, talk to them, skin/eye contact whilst feeding and talking to them; as well as playing little games like peek-a-boo, blowing raspberries on their tummy or whatnot. This is how babies bond and attach and feel secure. This interaction/stimulation all contributes to the wiring and development of the brain. There is no way paid caregivers in a nursery setting with a large number of babies in their care can ever replicate that.

Not all nurseries have huge amounts of babies though. The baby room my son was in from 6 months had 3 babies and 2 staff.

User0224 · 21/05/2024 12:49

SplitFountainPen · 21/05/2024 12:44

As if anyone who actually enjoys having children is sticking them in a bouncer infront of a screen all day.
The risk factors for that sort of neglect are when there's been no attachment formed, commonly due to damage from early separation..

It's messed up that nursery workers bringing up strangers children whilst parents pop by in the evening and weekends is viewed as normal by some.

How could a baby having screen time be due to early separation? Are we talking antenatal separation?

caffelattetogo · 21/05/2024 12:52

It worries me that the additional funding is being given by the government just for subsidised childcare hours, and from as young as nine months. I'd say that money for children from 9m-1year was better spent raising statutory maternity pay and funding it for the full 12 months, to make it more affordable for working parents to stay at home, or possibly offering it as an either/or - so parents could choose either longer with their children or to have subsidised childcare for that period.

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