To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

Babies under a year (at least) are better off in the home environment with a primary carer, be that Dad, Mum, Granny, Grandad, a Nanny etc.

Most of us know this and I’d hedge a bet it would be our preferred choice.

However, what we know and what we can afford/facilitate are two different things.

My eldest was in full time care, I was SAHM for next two and now work in a nursery although not in the baby room, so I feel like I've seen many perspectives. I have absolutely no doubt that what I did for DS1 was right, he thrived there. I often felt bad for DD and Ds2 as they were stuck in a car in heavy traffic so often, I was constantly trying to get a bag organised or preparing meals etc that the one to one time was probably less than what they would get in a nursery. I do think however that DS2 would have thrived more with a private childminder, I agree nursery isn't for everyone.

My current job is so strict on ratios it is absolutely drilled into us. If you need to make a phone call or pop out to the shop next door you need someone to cover. Management is everything, they are in and out all the time. The biggest issue is staff absences, we have floaters who cover and managers too but it's possible the numbers absent are too great. If this happens, and it only happened once or twice, parents are told they cannot bring a child in until later and part timers are called in, even family members of senior staff have stepped in where they are not allowed handle children but can help setting up rooms or cleaning etc, but they 100% stick to the ratio no matter what.

I agree, I find it weird that the government is willing to pour so much money into childcare rather than better maternity pay/higher wages so that parents can work less and be at home more. So sad that it’s not an option for most to stay at home. I accept being a SAHP isn’t for everyone, but I can guarantee there’s a hell of a lot of parents that would choose to stay at home in a heartbeat if only that option was available

You do what's best for you and your family, we all do. Threads like this achieve nothing.

For us, it worked out that I did 9 months of mat leave, then because I'm the breadwinner my husband took over and did from 9 months to 2.5 years at home. At 2.5 years, my DS needed to socialize, but we felt (because we know him best) that a nursery wouldnt suit him given he was a quiet kid and we felt would get a bit lost in a big setting, having only ever known me, his dad and his grandparents. We chose a childminder and as you do, we vetted her, spoke to other parents, went to visit the setting, looked at the activities she did with the children etc. He absolutely loves it with her. They're out in nature every day, his language and understanding has rocketed since he's been going to her and he actively asks daily if it's a 'childminders name day yet. We live in a small town and she's well known around the baby groups etc, ad other parents have spotted my son out with her and commented how great she is with the kids in her care and how lucky we are to have found her. I trust her completely and can't believe our luck most days, she's expanded my DS's world.

My friends little boy goes to nursery and has done from 7 months. He's 6 months younger than mine, walked sooner, talked sooner, he's potty trained (mine isn't). He's thrived at nursery 5 days a week and loves it. He's got a little group of friends, has formed relationships with the staff etc and their childcare is a lot more reliable than mine.

Whatever you choose to do, you make the choice because it's best for you in your circumstances, and no one outside of your bubble has a clue what's for the best.

I love the cries of not all childminders are the same yet clearly all nurseries are crammed with babies who look at the same walls for 60 hours a week with 17 year olds looking after them. 🙄

Unfortunately the government is motivated by the contribution those parents of 9 month olds can make to the economy, not by what is best for children i.e. being with a primary caregiver.

I think they can though, if they have good staff. In the baby room you don't have to do anything else. Hot nutritious meals delivered to you by another staff, no laundry, no school runs or grocery shopping. Just nappy changes and bits of simple cleaning as you go jobs. A SAHM is juggling much more if its a second child and has a lot less time for interactions. Also many people forget to talk to their babies, in a nursery they witness adult interactions all the time. The bigger issue is the low pay and resulting high turnover and sometimes poor quality staff.

But what do you really think?

You get a huge range of childminders because there are so many different options to set up childminding and how to run it once you've fulfilled the basic, legal requirements.

With a nursery because of the large number of children involved and because it's hard to make a profit your options are much more limited. Most nurseries are fairly similar in their working and set up. Very few nurseries can afford to have less than 10 babies in a room with a staff child ratio that's better than what is legally mandated. The only times I've seen this is when a nursery has just opened up and they just don't have enough clients yet.

Also nursery staff are so badly paid that more often than not you will get mostly very young staff and have a high turnover.

Your honesty is refreshing.

Exactly right, parenting is so undervalued. We are only judged by our economic value. Shame it has become normal to not see your baby for most of the day

This is anecdote rather than statistic though. Statistically the highest levels of depression and anxiety is amongst people of a lower income bracket and people without degrees.
In any case, parents work for many reasons. They need to pay the mortgage to keep a roof over their heads. They have worked hard for a career they enjoy and dont want to give it up. They can't afford to bring up a child on one salary. What's the alternative? We have a work and skills shortage already. Paying mothers ( and it will be mothers) to leave the workforce means most teachers, nurses and GP's gone for years at a time. Maybe forcibly kick old people out of their homes and cap house price increases so that young families have access to affordable housing? That'll go down well, I'm sure. Don't have children unless you can afford to stay at home for 5 years? We have a demographic time bomb already. The answer has to be to enable people to work and have families. More flexible workplaces, proper shared parental leave that can be taken by both parents consecutively so that babies don't need to go to nursery until they are a year old, a more family friendly work culture and better childcare provision. But nobody wants to pay for this. Its easier to guilt trip mothers.

People might also find Suzanne Venker interesting:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=IVAFxOZ0gJQ&pp=ygUXZGF5Y2FyZSBzdXphbm5lIHZlbmtlciA%3D

Some people really don't have a clue what us childminders do, do they!

My school runs with my minded children take 30 minutes. It's no different to a mum taking their child to school, with a sibling in a pushchair........

Yeah it's fucked and those incidents are horrendous. They really got to me. I think nursery is a shit place for a baby and a baby under 1 will not get anywhere near the love and attention they need at that age. Daycare workers don't love the babies so how will they be nice to them for that long? The whole argument of them needing to socialise is spurious, they aren't bothered about that until they are about 3 or older. People twist themselves up coming up with all sorts of reasons why it's ok but it's not really. If parents can manage by not putting their kid in daycare, then they should keep them at home where they will get proper love. Explain it away however you like, a baby just wants its Mother.

Re the "Tagging along", DD1 absolutely loved being with the CM's older children as a baby (was 12 months when she went there), and they were used to always having mindees there as their mum was a nanny then a CM later. It really was a home from home for her and just the right environment. It was just her and the CM during the day. It is a lot of trust to place on one person but I never had any reason to worry.

Have you ever worked in a baby room?
Getting 15 babies hand washed, seated, fed, cleaned up, room cleaned, nappies changed and in to bed is hard work and stressful! Nothing like being a sahm with two children.

With DD2, we had moved then and found another CM at the end of the road, and she was only 9 months old when she went there as I couldn't afford to stay off work for longer. DD1 was there with her before and after pre-school and another baby who was a year older than DD2. I was a bit worried about the baby/toddler combination but it was amazing - they hit it off and absolutely loved one another, it was so cute.

I have an acquaintance who is a nursery manager and says it’s easier for them. Because they aren’t also preparing the food, they’re in a purpose designed (often built) environment and the staff don’t have additional responsibilities aside from the children.

Also 15 babies is misleading as the ratios dictate there should only be 1:3.

Do you genuinely think most parents are putting babies that young into nursery for fun? Or has it occurred to you there’s a reason for it? My 6 month old is at nursery part time because the cost of living crisis meant I had to go to work sooner than I had hoped. I full well know my baby just wants her mum, but I don’t want us to be homeless so needs must. What I don’t need is these shitty faux concerned comments from people who clearly cannot fathom not every family is the same and we can’t all just “manage by not putting them in daycare”. Not every family looks like yours, that’s fine, but stop shaming other mums for factors out of their control.

This thread has descended into a typical childminder vs nursery vs stay at home parent debate. It’s not as simple as that. There will be good and bad childminders as well as good and bad nurseries, as well as, dare I say, good and bad parents. It’s not a simple case of one versus the other. For what it’s worth, my two went to nursery for ease as had absolutely no family back up if childminder was to be ill, for example. Had I had family back up and known of a good childminder, would I have sent mine there? Yes, probably, at least until their preschool year. So sad about Genevieve - out and out neglect by that particular nursery but let’s not tar them all with the same brush.

The government isn’t “pouring” money into anything, it’s a complete con. In real terms it’s £200 pcm to me, my bill is still £721. The Goverment will take the most cost effective route.

I’m not sure encouraging Mums to stay at home (and thus be dependent on their partners for income) is a viable solution when 50% of marriages end in divorce. You’ll end up with higher numbers of children growing up in poverty which is undisputedly bad for development.