To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

That was my view too. I couldn't have afforded a nanny but I thought childminders could easily be overwhelmed, being on their own with several children. There are some checks and balances in a nursery, just from the fact there are several adults there. I didn't switch to a childminder until the summer before my son started school.

My girls were at a SureStart Centre and it was the most amazing, beautiful space with the most wonderful staff.
I can honestly say I trusted everyone from the receptionist to the dinner lady (who used to make plantain and dumplings for the kids and would not let mine leave without an extra dumpling to eat on the way home).
Sure Start centre should be reintroduced.

Oh for goodness sake. All kids are different. I wondered if my son would ever learn to chew! His nursery managed not to kill him though!

Spoiler: he did learn to chew

On the guilt issue, unfortunately most of us don't have private incomes and/or rich spouses and therefore have to work to keep a roof over our heads, so we need childcare.

Yeah I mean it’s not particularly helpful for people to be all “ohhh but nurseries are not the very best for your child and it’s important that you are aware of this head tilt”

fact is, a lot of parents have to work. That’s it. That’s the post. There is no option. I’m quite sure most parents would prefer to stay at home but for most people it’s not an option.

So quoting articles that tell us it’s “not optimal” to have an under-1 in nursery is no use to us. It literally serves no purpose other than to make us feel a bit more shit.

These two cases were heartbreaking. The reason they are in the news is that it is very rare though in reality it should never happen. In all things there are good and bad. I have witnessed a CM who was so so lovely with the parents but when they had dropped off the child was so uncaring with the child. Again a rarity but yes it happens. I am fortunate to never have to use childcare and I understand how difficult it is for parents to use the right one.

I’ve been trying all morning to type this as eloquently as you 😂”no judgement but it’s just not the best, thought you should know” is just so patronising and unhelpful, and clearly designed to put working mums in their place 🤦🏼‍♀️

Maybe there needs to be a complete rethink on this entire issue.
So nurseries aren’t the best places for under twos. ( in some /most cases )
Maybe then, instead of spending millions subsidising childcare, the government pay parents to stay at home for 2 years & look after their own children?

No thanks. I don’t want to stay at home for 2 years.

I don’t want potential employers to hesitate to employ women because we all know that it would largely be women taking up the offer to stay at home for 2 years. It already exists to an extent with maternity leave which is shorter.

Its really off to make mothers feel bad about using child care while at the same time so many people are voting to slash budgets and the benefits bill.

And the other thing is that people can and do have good experiences. My kids got a huge amount out of their nursery and we are all really glad it was a part of our lives. We still have relationships with some of the staff members.

There are 100s of deaths of children at schools every year. The majority are cardiac arrest or other natural causes, but a fair amount are accidents.
Frankly nowhere is 100% safe.

I don’t think of it as fortunate as such- we were just willing to sacrifice certain things to make it work. We could have opted for 9-5 jobs and have all our evenings and weekends together etc but instead we have worked opposite days/shifts for the last 10 years. Meaning we miss a lot as a couple as well as missing things like Christmas as a family.

I don’t want to do that tbh. Let’s be realistic and acknowledge it would fuck many women’s careers/job security and finances. It would always be the women wouldn’t it as well. The men wouldn’t be falling over to take the second year off.

I agree with you too. I know some children who thrived at nursery from a young age. In my home country ML is only 4months so what do people think we do with our children, millions of them?
It's also a necessity at times, what do parents do if they do not have the luxury of being home?
I would prefer a nursery over child minder. Something about other people who can visit her home puts me off.

What I would say though, and this is something that will be unpopular BUT I would not have a nanny who doesn't have children of her own. I've had 2 and a friend and my sister as well had the very same experience. Awful.

Do I feel guilty that I have to send my young children to nursery? Yes

Would I feel even more guilty if we couldn’t afford to pay our mortgage and were subsequently homeless if we didn’t send them to nursery and one of us stopped working? Yes, I imagine I would

I don’t CHOOSE to send my children to nursery, I have no choice if we want to pay the mortgage, eat, etc. You make it sound like everyone has a choice in whether they send their child to nursery.

Not to be goady but in my circle lots of people do have a choice whether to send their children to nursery 50+ hours a week and do it anyway.

Im not unsympathetic to people who have no choice. We work shifts around ours so we only have to use 15 hours/week and are lucky to be able to do so (along with driving bangers and not going on fancy holidays) but in a lot of my friendship and working groups people could make other choices, but don’t.

Not to be goady but in my circle lots of people do have a choice whether to send their children to nursery 50+ hours a week and do it anyway.

To be fair, a nursery that's even open 50 hours a week is unusual. 8.30-5.30 is standard where I am

I think it’s fair to say there’s likely to be a bias of parents who SAH with their kids given were posting in the middle of the day - those are the people who have time on their hands to engage with a post like this.

I wish I had stayed at home, I didn’t need to go back to work and had a husband who supported me either way. But I had some fears re “just being a mum” and somehow being reduced as a person because of that.

I work 3 days. My kids are in childcare from 8-5 2 days and the third day my parents collect them for tea and have them for a couple of hours.

I think my eldest would have benefited not being in childcare, but he was also the hardest work and I got PND and PDA with my second and would have struggled immensely did he not continue with nursery whilst my youngest was a baby.

I imagine nurseries are safer, statistically because they are purpose built buildings and the staff literally just have to care for the kids. They aren’t also cooking dinner, doing housework and looking after themselves.

I have been to stay and plays with my sons and wondered how on earth they keep them occupied in the same room day in, day out but both my children are enthusiastic about nursery etc so they must enjoy their time there.

I always make sure my time with my kids is lots of active play and being outdoors which is something nursery isn’t so good for.

These stories are very tragic and horrifying, but as PP have said they are extremely rare.

We used nursery for our two DC from 9 and 12 months respectively, 3 days per week. The staff could not have been more lovely and caring, we still see one of them on the way to school and DS will run and hug her. They were very affectionate and dedicated, and as the DC got older they also enjoyed the social setting, having other toddlers to play with.

I actually preferred the idea of my babies/toddlers being in a nursery than being out and about all over the place on school runs etc with childminders. But working parents need childcare and go with what they are comfortable with in their own situations.

Although it does make me wonder though why some peoples first response is that "it's guilt tripping working mothers!". Likely these people DO feel guilty for sending their child to nursery and they get a little defensive when the subject is brought up. (They shouldn't though, theres nothing to feel guilty about.)

I'm not a fan of being told what I should and shouldn't feel guilty about. I sent DS to nursery 2/3 days a week from 15 months. I had my reasons and at the time I thought it was right, but now looking back I massively regret it. It wasn't right and I feel guilty. At around 3 years I think they start seeing the benefits of small amounts of time at nursery. Why can't we feel guilty about the things we do that aren't right? That we are forced to do them by the system doesn't mean we should try and squash the feeling alerting us to the wrongness of the situation.

On the actual news: devastating. Of course it makes one weary of sending their baby to a nursery.

I wonder whether your experience is typical, or whether mine is.

I'm a SAHM. I spent plenty of time around local childminders at toddler groups and would often see them out and about in town and in playgrounds.

I never saw then ignoring a child who needed help. They were generally more attentive to and interacted more with 'their' children than I did with mine at playgroups - I usually viewed them as a time for my children to play with others or independently whilst I chatted to adults and kept an eye on them from sone metres away!

The worst were a bit lazy perhaps at times, but fine. The best were excellent.

My views on who is best to look after small children would generally be seen as antediluvian on here; if anything I'm more prejudiced against daycare of any kind than likely to defend it out of bias.

And I didn't love that even with the best childminders, children often were in a pram or a car for the kind of journeys they could walk, simply because it wouldn't be safe to have 5 toddlers and preschoolers walking loose down a high street.

But those childminders were all fine, and mostly they were really good.

I think that’s unusual. Most people don’t even finish work until 5.30 so nurseries have to stay open later.

How on earth do you attribute a child's mental health problems later in life to nursery? Many children attend nursery full time just fine and don't have mental health problems. So surely if it was nursery, there would be a very clear link and all children attending nursery would experience it? You sound very jealous of this other couples lifestyle and clearly you regard them as selfish for choosing to work and provide for their little one to have a better life. I wonder how their child will feel like about it later in life? Let's be honest, they won't even remember their early years as who does. I'm assuming you plan to send your child to school? My mum was a SAHM and to be honest I chose the opposite because she had zero financial independence from my father and her life revolved around me which wasn't healthy for her or me either. She didn't have much choice because nurseries weren't great in the 80s or didn't exist. Also I wanted to demonstrate to my kids that I can provide and work hard, which I do. Also regarding getting ill a lot, some children have better immune systems than others, but actually both of mine went to nursery three days a week and barely had any school time off due to already having had all the bugs at nursery...unlike some of their friends who didn't go to nursery and had to have a lot of time otf. So they'd actually built their immune system up a bit earlier. Ultimately what's right for you won't be right for someone else. As more parents choose to work I predict there will be higher demand for good nurseries and hopefully this will drive standards further up. The government could help here.

I’ve noticed on threads like this that people so against nurseries always seem to ‘know’ someone who sends their babies for 50-60 hours a week.

in reality, most mothers go back to work part time and the majority of babies go to nursery part time.

Mine does go full time but not for 50-60 hours, especially now I’m on maternity leave.

Why are you surprised then that people know people in the same circumstances as you?

In my family there’s probably an even spilt of FT and PT work amongst the parents.