To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

For those spouting that kids can’t form attachments if they are left in nursery blah blah

I strongly disagree. My mum was a SAHM until i went to school, though i did half a day at preschool.

I have no recollection of life at home in the early years, as most people probably wouldn’t, as they are too young. What had a greater effect on me is how my parents cared for me when I was older ie when I could actually form more memories. Which was shit. Just because someone doesn’t put their kid in childcare from age 1, doesn’t mean they will continue to be a super parent afterwards and won’t fuck up their kids by not supporting them in other ways.

My kids have been/will be in childcare from 11 months. But I am dead focused on how I can support them as they grow up. Including continuing to earn money and increase job security so I can provide for them without so much worry.

Each to their own. No way would i leave my kids with a CM until age 4 or 5. They don’t provide enough stimulation at that age and it’s highly likely your kid will be spending the day with babies instead of peers.

The way the second baby was treated made me go cold. All 3 of mine have been through nursery. One I took from nursery and didn't return due to poor care.
But I had never thought, even fleetingly of babies being treated like that.

I would have never left either of my two in a nursery, my late MIL was a wonderful woman and she looked after my two. I did only return to work one day a week though. I fully appreciate for many mums there is no other option.

??? Some absolutely do. My sister used to check in on her children on the camera at least once a day. As long as everyone is aware that there is a camera and that other parents can log on, it's not a GDPR breach.

I wonder if the claim that kids are angry at school take in school factors.

My mum was a SAHM in the early years but I was angry at primary school when she did nothing to help me when I was physically bullied.

Great article, thank you! This is exactly what I've always suspected based on gut instinct. Nursery from as young as possible doesn't necessarily benefit non-verbal babies or toddlers who would clearly prefer to remain in a parental presence. However every time you dare voice such an opinion you get bulldozed by the "bUt ThEy LeArN SoCiAl sKiLls!!" brigade of mums.

A child "appearing happy" in nursery doesn't mean anything either. The study clearly shows their cortisol levels rise throughout the day as children perceive time to be much longer than adults. Just like adults can force themselves through uncomfortable situations (flying, public speaking etc), most children learn to endure childcare environments.

We have a befriended career couple who put their daughter in full-time childcare (8+ hours a day, 5 days a week) from 10 months. Both didn't compromise anything with work and ensured the family had a huge level of material comfort. Their child was hugely independent from young age and hit all milestones early. However soon after starting school, she's developed panic disorder and needs psychiatric treatment aged 5. Knowing their family fairly well, she definitely didn't experience any ACEs in her life aside from the glaring fact that she was in near full-time care of strangers from an extremely early age. She also got ill a lot (invariably) but still made to attend nursery if it clashed with the parents' work schedules and there was simply no other option available.

It's sadly a fact that no nursery worker is going to love and care for your child the same as you do. They aren't going to stress about choking hazards the same way as you. Their world isn't going to end the same way as yours will if something happens.

Because most of the time it's fine, nothing happens and they can get away with not keeping babies 99% safe.

And some of them will be there because they couldn't find anything else/need the money.

Because dd was a rainbow baby after so many losses I understood this, and made sacrifices to make sure I was the one looking after her. Not saying that is particularly normal either, I was so stressed and anxious that it was hard to think clearly in the early years, and the fact is that most babies are fine at nursery.

I have no recollection of life at home in the early years, as most people probably wouldn’t, as they are too young.

Early years experience does have a huge impact on children, though - whether or not they remember it.

Unfortunately the two families have lost their most precious ones at the hands of two individuals and saying that I still don't agree with nurseries being unsafe countrywide. Nurseries are safe yes but is it a loving environment, probably not or at least not at the extent a parent could provide and we all know that. It's a substandard place that provides standard care but it is equipped with the perfect tools to stimulate your baby. Whether you have a live in nanny, cm or send your lo to nursery its all the same unless you find a nanny that forms a lovely bond, or a great childminder or a nursery that is full of dedicated loving staff then it's pretty much standard everywhere around the world.

A lot of things happen at nursery due to not following their own policies and procedures
When my daughter was 2, she went to a nursery, she loved it and I was happy with it
One day I walked in a bit later than usual around 5.45 so 10-15 minutes till closing time
My daughter was the only child left in her class.
I walk in, just in time to see her pulling the bookcase on herself, so it fell but miraculously she managed to jump out of the way
The only nursery nurse there was in a storage room, so wasn't in the room when that happened but she heard the commotion and came running shouting no no no
And pretended she was there all along, she didn't realise I saw it all

Lots of things I guess
They had a rule, always 2 staff were supposed to be there
Also if the bookcase was that flimsy that a 2 year old could pull it down then clearly that's another issue.
Anyway, I realised that I needed to make sure that I was always ready to pick up by 5.30 cuz ssomehow many nursery nurses left by then and most children too
So the last 30 minutes there's not much care at all.
My daughter went to 3 different nurseries
This one was the best

Of course it does, but whether or not the kid goes to nursery is not the be all and all. Support as they get older is also key and is what the child remembers.

The stories in the recent news are rare. That’s why they are in the news. I don’t send my boy to nursery thinking be will be killed. Just like i didn’t think my babies would be murdered by a nurse when they were born. Saying nureries are unsafe is too much of a generalisation. I would also argue they are still safer than schools.

Absolutely this. Next we will be saying don't send your kids to school or on school trips, or allow them to go swimming and keep them with you until in their 20s at all times. It's not practical for everyone to be a stay at home parent and this keeps women down as it is indeed usually them! Also accidents can and do happen in the home with the parent present! If anything having more (hopefully well rested) staff around to spot any issues and a premises which should be risk assessed and specifically designed/set up for the purpose might be safer than being at home. For example kids kept away from kitchens which are separate in nurseries reduces some risk. You can never eliminate all risk and yes there have been some tragedies which is awful. Our kids are precious precious. But OP do you not get on a plane yourself or with your kids because there has been plane crashes before now? You have to put things in perspective.

Like in a real family? Sounds good to me.

My "real family" only has one child in it. But thanks for that.

I beg your pardon? No, I'm not 'thick' as you put it. I have SEN DC. There is nothing 'thick' about asking a question. If the baby had medical needs or development delay that affected them eating it would have been referenced in the article. If you don't realise that then perhaps you are the one who is 'thick.'

Just in reply to your first post. My two smaller ones love the school run! They love trying to copy their older brother and watch what he’s doing.

I can’t see the problem with them ‘tagging along’ on school runs, being outside, learning to walk alongside sensibly and all that sort of thing. Better than being stuck in one room all day IMO.

We had 2 childminders and the issue you mention:

-Our son was taken in the pushchair every day to pick up the CM’s own kids from school

-We had to take lots of time off work for the CM to take her kids to medical appointments

The other issues we had were:

-One quitting suddenly and leaving us in the shit

-One having tv on all day, not encouraging development eg spoon feeding instead of letting him use cutlery

-Sending my son home all the time for nothing, eg even when GPs said he was fine. Trying to diagnose autism without any medical training

-Constantly sending wrong invoices. Forgetting to give us all dates of their annual leave

-Incident where my son was badly scratched by their pet

I live on a street with a childminding couple and personally know 3 people who have removed their kids from their care due to bad issues.

We moved our son to nursery and it’s been amazing, and will send our DC2 there from 11 months. Don’t worry about sending your kid to nursery :)

You see, offence can be taken at anything, if you are so minded.
If a baby is the second or third child then they will obviously spend tine ‘tagging along’. The ‘real families’ was to distinguish between a birth family and the childminder’s family group, not to imply that one child does not comprise a real family.
But I suspect you knew that.

As pp said, you'll get stick for this. But it's because many put their babies in nursery and will feel targeted.
I've heard from quite a few nursery teachers how awful the environment is for younger babies / toddlers and lots of them are miserable. A mum in my baby group was just telling us how she is struggling as her little one (started at 12 months old, is now 16 months) spends most of the day crying and the nursery teacher even told the mum off for picking her baby up so late (5pm).

No, I'm not judging families who put their babies in nursery. Just repeating what I've been told by multiple nursery workers.

Also worked in nurseries in the past. Some good some really not. The large chains seem like money making businesses without care for the children and not many requirements for who they employed. Basically they needed to staff them so employed anyone. I found the individual privately owned better to work for. I would never have sent my own children to a private nursery. The babies in my care were well cared for and I made sure everyone working for me knew there were high standards. The stories in the news disgust me that the alarm was not raised sooner. I have come across staff that had zero patient and were really in the wrong job. I would choose a well regarded childminder personally.

I think they’re safe but I don’t think they’re a nice environment

This depends on the CM. Our second CM would keep my son in a pushchair during the school runs even though he loved to walk, claiming it kept him safer around traffic. It was a residential street, not even a busy road.

Honestly, there's no need for everyone to tear strips off each other. Different childcare set ups work for different people.

My kids went to nursery. I probably would have had a slight preference for a childminder initially, but in my area I wasn't impressed with the ones on offer. Our nursery was fantastic. But for other people that decision will be different.

Such a wild generalisation.

The nursery we use has a max of 12 babies (3-18 months) with 5 staff members. They try not to go above 10 babies per session but still have the 5 staff, so a ratio of 1:2 usually.

There’s two gardens and it’s next to the beach so they’ll take them down to the beach as well as other outings.

The babies play in a nice big room, with plenty of toys and soft play type apparatus, then an adjacent cot room.

Obviously sometimes there’s kids crying when I go to pickup but on the whole the kids are relaxed and it’s such a calm environment. My LO gets very very red when she’s upset for hours afterwards so I can tell if she’s been crying in the past hour or two, and she’s never shown any sign of upset. She’s just smiling and chatting to the staff and when I had her over in the morning to her key worker she immediately snuggles into her for a big cuddle. The staff are the same who worked there when DD1 was in the baby room.

Genuinely think the nursery facilities are much nicer than our house, certainly the garden is 😂

If that is not a nice environment I don’t know what is!