To think nurseries are not safe for young babies

[Luxell934]

I've read about two very young babies dying in nurseries recently. One who choked after being given inappropriate food and one who was left to smother to death.

As a new mother it's absolutely terrifying to think about, I have also worked myself in nurseries for a number of years. It was a very well respected chain of nurseries and we were always understaffed and over ratio, I remember caring for up to 9 babies with just two staff and were told team leaders were "in the office, if needed" which basically meant get on with it and don't bother us. I also remember feeding 4/5 babies at a time. Looking back I was so young that I didn't speak up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13438725/Nursery-nurse-Kate-Roughley-manslaughter-convicted.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqennjjllpqo

Probably not ideal for young babies but what choice do some parents have? Working from home with a young baby? That’s probably more neglectful and risky. My two went to nursery, from 12 months and 9 months and it was a lovely nursery. Many parents are still friends with the nursery workers 20yrs on, in fact I saw 3 of them at a fellow nursery mums 50th recently, all still working there. I’m sure at times they were left to cry a bit, has it had a detrimental effect on them? No, both barely remember being there, so glad I didn’t give up my career as they wouldn’t have remembered that either. These are isolated incidents, nurseries shouldn’t be letting babies sleep on bean bags, ours had proper coats and a sleeping area for the under 15 months, then they had a mat on the floor.

I didn’t put my kids into nursery until they could speak and verbally communicate with me. I always felt that they were physically safer there as everything is made for young kids. At home they would hurt themselves more than at nursery.

However, there emotional needs were not met there. I asked my son why he didn’t like going there. He said “because they can’t cuddle me like you do mummy”, it broke my heart

Agree - I wonder why we haven’t heard more about the management etc. Everyone involved in the care and staffing at that nursery should be charged.

IMO I think WFH with a small child is totally neglectful and far worse than childcare. You’re essentially trying to ignore your child all day.

My five year old runs for a cuddle from his nursery preschool key worker now when we go and collect his younger brother. I do see the staff cuddling the children etc.

That’s wrong, it doesn’t have to be pre-planned to be murder, it just needs to be intentional. For instance, if I stab someone in the chest in the heat of the moment that’s still murder because I intended to kill them by my actions. If I push someone and they fall, hit their head and die, that’s manslaughter because I didn’t intend to kill them by my actions.

You can of course have pre-meditated murder, but that’s not the defining factor, intent is, even if that’s intent in the moment.

In this very sad case it’s likely the prosecution felt they couldn’t prove the perpetrator intended to kill the poor baby.

Safe- generally yes.
Optimal- no.

I don’t think this should be a discussion we can’t have simply because it makes working mums feel guilty. If there are risks with nursery (to safety or development) we need to talk about them, otherwise how will things improve? I used nursery for DC1 and it was the right thing at the time but that doesn’t mean it was perfect.

If society wants two parents in the workplace, we should be subsidising childcare enough to make safe and age-appropriate care affordable. If we think a parent should be staying at home, we should be supporting that through the benefits system and a right to return to work after a longer period (which works well in other countries). We seem to have the worst of all worlds- social expectations and economic reality mean two parents at work but we don’t have the childcare provision to make it doable.

My DD started nursery at 2.5. She developed a very close bond with the head of her class. If she was upset in the morning I could pass her over and she'd cuddle into her and be comforted. She also had bonds with a number of other staff and always was close with someone in her class.

This nursery had small ratios of children to staff - better than required in law so this may have been part of the reason. Each DC got some 1:1 time with a staff member every day.

No one wants to say it but we also have to consider what our society will look like with so many institutionalised children soon to be adults.

She wasn’t under a year. Most kids start some form of pre school etc at that age.

Oh bless him! Did he mean they didn't cuddle him or not enough or not in the same way you did. That's really sad.

Yes I agree, I think it’s shocking that some people think it’s ok, I’ve seen people doing it with under 1’s. We tried to do something about it with a member of our staff and got told by HR we couldn’t as mum was bf’ing and there’s legislation. Bit of a cop out I felt but she was meeting her targets so not much we could do but sends out the wrong message that this is ok. It’s really not

My son is 20 this year and attended nursery full time. He’s at university now, second year, he’s the president of his society and runs multiple sports teams. He’s got an internship at a top london company and graduate job pretty much lined up. All top grades at GCSE and A level. He’s such a good ‘kid’, so sociable and never caused me a days trouble. If that’s what institutionalised looks like I think society will be ok.

Yes, I know that. I was responding to a comment worrying that kids in the future won't know how to bond or form secure relationships because they haven't been able to in nursery.

I had to do it during Covid and it was awful. I asked to go unpaid but wasn’t allowed and my work didn’t do furlough.

It was actively encouraged during Covid, my boss told me to get a playpen and crack on.

Post Covid many people continued and I know it became an issue between their workplaces and them as they were then told it wasn’t allowed. A colleague of mine lost her job over it.

@Polishedshoesalways

i used to work in a nursery 10 years ago and the manager was horrendous she was vile and she abused her staff and eventually got sacked once I walked out.

i also don’t like the nursery routine as a parent. They enforce the children outside at all weathers unless it’s torrential rain but if they are out in it they are kept until someone says it’s ok to come in. Baby’s don’t go out in the wet though. I don’t want that for my child. My childminder takes them the zoo, the park, childminding play groups, soft play, wildlife parks… etc etc so why would I send my child to a nursery to be stuck in the same place mon-fri when she gets more out of the childminding experience. It has nothing to do with the safety of a nursery just the routine and the opportunities. My two year old knows her colours she knows her numbers to 10 she is clever and I personally feel like my childminder along with myself is responsible for that. Childminding is more personal and that’s what I want.

I also wouldn’t send my child to the nursery I’m at to promote independence she has came here on two occasions and cried for me both times she knows I’m here and works with babies. Doesn’t bat an eyelid at the childminders ans never have.

I also knew my childminder for 15 odd years used to go out with her when younger etc. My niece who’s 13 went to her when she was 1-4 so it was always going to be that or I’d be a stay at home mum.

its personal preference but I 10000% would choose a childminder over nursery however like I said had it probably not be this childminder I’d have sucked it up and been a stay at home mum. Also I’d love to home school my W year old when she reaches 4. I hate the system.

2 cases of death but unless you work in a nursery you have no idea if the near misses on dangerous stuff and how the culture if hidding mistakes is . I would never leave my young child in a nursery after working in one . One of the supposed amazing ones too

No for gdpr reasons you would not be able to watch other people’s children. they should however have CCTV for they themselves to watch.

That is a fascinating article. I've sometimes wondered if I'd failed my DC in some way and that article reassures me that I was fortunate to have been in a position to go with my instincts.

I suspect victimisation and cruelty happen in nurseries far more than we would like to think, just as they happen in care homes.

Ignore the patronising and faux concerned posters who feel that a thread started after a baby died at a nursery is the best place to jump on their self righteous soap box about how all nurseries “aren’t best” for babies and they could never 😱 I’m sure your baby will be fine - and reading between the lines a lot of the posters adamantly against nursery had kids 20-30 years ago when times were vastly different.

The poor family of Genevieve who may some of the comments on here, completely tone deaf. The whole thing is heartbreaking

I worked in nursery's. I don't think it's the best place for babies in terms of emotional needs. However, when it comes to safety they are typically the safest places and much safer than being with wider family or friends. These are 2 sad but rare cases. All staff are first aid trained and the whole environment is set up to ensure children's safety. Doors are secure, no sharp objects, nothing that can cause burns, door hinges are covered. Millions of children go to nursery without having a serious accident, don't let these rare ones scare you off them.

OP, far more babies are killed in their own homes in horrific circumstances by their mothers and their abusive partners. Far more babies are killed in hospitals by Lucy Letby and other twisted nurses. Far more babies die because they have not been inoculated against common illnesses.

Nurseries are safe places. These cases are dreadful tragedies for their families and we all feel for them, but as others have said, there are hundreds of thousands of babies being cared for lovingly and safely in nurseries every day.

Having worked in nursery settings, I've never seen anything dangerous or neglectful myself.

However, I absolutely recognise all of those "throwaway" comments that were made ("stop being such a stress head", "she's such a diva", "stop your whingeing" etc). I know lots of absolutely lovely nursery staff, I know some who are well-meaning but tired and over-stretched, and I've met a small but significant minority who don't much like babies, and who don't provide a positive environment in which they can thrive.

Oh ffs 🤦🏼‍♀️ they’re not institutionalised. Presumably you sent your kids to school? Are they institutionalised too?
Shockingly we may grow up with a generation of kids who have seen both parents work and know that as a woman you can do whatever you damn well want.