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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what on earth do people who post about Palestine expect to happen?

291 replies

trekking1 · 15/05/2024 22:53

It seems that every time I log into social media there are so people constantly posting about how we need to free Palestine and condemning everyone who ignores their posts.

May I ask what do they expect posting about it will actually accomplish? Did I miss something and wars can be stopped with SM posts? If so, why are they not posting the same about Ukraine? There is still a war going on there...

OP posts:
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ILoveYouItsRuiningMyLife · 16/05/2024 01:07

trekking1 · 15/05/2024 23:14

Good luck going through life not engaging with yourself then

On an entirely unrelated note, this made me lol.

GenerationP · 16/05/2024 01:11

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Israel and Judaism have absolutely nothing to do with each other

Are* *you fucking serious?!!! I have seen a lot of ignorance on MN in my time but this really takes first prize. I’m embarrassed for you. Really. OMFG.

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David: all this more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans, and finally the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

That’s the unbreakable connection between Israel and the Jewish people. The connection between Israel and Judaism is equally ancient and fundamental. Read the Hebrew Bible and you’ll see immediately that it isn’t about the salvation of the soul (see Christianity). It’s about creating in the holy land a society based on the biblical ideas of justice, welfare, and the sanctity of life.

In the centuries of exile and dispersion Jews lived in almost every land under the sun, Israel has remained a focus of their prayers ( you know, that line in their prayer where they say “Next year in Jerusalem”) - and the only place where they have been able to do what every other nation takes for granted - to construct their own society in the light of their own ideals.

Judaism differs from the other Abrahamic monotheisms, Christianity and Islam, in that it is the only one of the three that never created or sought to create an empire. It was the imperialism of the Roman emperor Hadrian that led him in the 2nd century to change the country’s name to Palestine, one of the first, but not the last, deliberate falsifications of history by those who seek to deny the Jewish people’s right to their land.

There are 56 Islamic nations in the world, and 159 in which Christians form the majority. There are 22 Arab States in the world also. There is and only ever has been one Jewish state, tiny and vulnerable (it’s the size of New Jersey for god’s sake). And what - according to you - the Jews aren’t allowed even a tiny sliver of land, where their DNA goes back centuries. YOU GFY! Such bigotry.

Apartheid is a big word. Shame you don’t have a clue what it means. Can you explain to me how Israel is practising apartheid against Palestinians, with real-life examples? I ask because Palestinians living in Judea and Samaria, along with the Gaza Strip, are not citizens of Israel. They are citizens of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas governments, respectively. Therefore the Israeli government do not have any jurisdiction over their lives day to day. These citizens are in a different territory that they do not control. Any grievances about the civil rights of Palestinians should be directed towards those governments, not Israel.

Instead, if you interrogate what apartheid actually was, ie a system of de jure discrimination and segregation of South Africa society (from 1948-1994), you cannot claim that a similar dynamic is at play in territories beyond Israel’s borders. During apartheid, a white minority ruled and oppressed a majority black population with restrictions on housing, employment and freedom of movement. I know very well that the apartheid accusation is complete bunk because I am fully up to speed with what the word actually means and the experiences of black South Africans during the apartheid era. It really doesn’t fit in this context and when you make this comparison it really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny (and you look very silly indeed).

The Afrikaans word for Apartheid means “apartness” - and in practice, every detail of life was subject to discrimination by law. Black South Africans did not have the vote. Skin colour determined where you were born and lived, your job, your school, which bus, train, taxi and ambulance you used, which park bench, toilet and beach you used, whom you could marry, and in which cemetery you were buried. So are you really telling me that Israel controls Palestinians’ lives to this extent in both Gaza and the West Bank? Honestly?!

I’m sorry, but someone has been lying to you. Are you really that credulous?

I have seen plenty of instances where some people refer to an “apartheid wall”. This is a cynical misrepresentation of the security barrier between Israel and parts of Judea and Samaria. This barrier (which is mostly a fence in reality), was put up to stop Palestinian terrorism after hundreds of Israelis were killed or wounded in suicide bombings, stabbings, and shootings (do you remember the first and second intifadas?). It does not separate people based on race or any other criteria. However, it is fair to say that some Israelis have opportunistically twisted the barrier’s purpose to grab land from Palestinians. That is exploitative and damaging (and I utterly condemn this). But calling it the “apartheid wall”, as critics do, is untrue propaganda.

I also just want to point out that Israel issue Gazans and Palestinians from the West Bank with employment permits so they cross the border legally each day for work. The permits allow Palestinians to work mostly menial jobs that pay far higher wages than those available inside Gaza or the West Bank (another way in which the PA and Hamas have been letting their own people down - by not bothering to create a decent and robust economy that delivers prosperity). So again, this undermines your apartheid argument.

Final question on this issue. If Israel are running the same brutal system of apartheid as the South African government did all those years ago, how come the country’s black citizens didn’t rise up and rape, torture, murder and kidnap its white citizens “in the name of equality and ending apartheid”? Could it be because Hamas’ unspeakable attacks have got nothing to do with the human rights of Palestinians and improving their lives, but everything to do with wanting to kill Jews and destroying Israel?

Maybe your support of Israel is because you hate Arabs? Maybe you are a racist Islamaphobe? Maybe you are angry that people value Arab lives in a way you don’t.

God what a load of tosh. It really sounds like you’re projecting here, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest I think like this in anything I’ve written. And you know it. It really shows that you are both clutching at straws and losing the argument.

Icehockeyflowers · 16/05/2024 01:13

but my point was why do they care more about this war than other past and ongoing conflicts.

A war means two sides are fighting each other. Israel is killing the UNARMED population. It is not a war. It is genocide.

Anotherparkingthread · 16/05/2024 01:16

trekking1 · 15/05/2024 23:03

I guess, if you can call "why are they not doing this pointless thing for something else" whataboutery 😂

People are allowed to have caused that are closer to their heart than others. Trumpeting your political belief isn't stepping on other causes. They may support Palestine because they are muslin and Palestine is a predominantly Muslim country. They may know Palestinian people. One of my closest friends, who is one of the kindest man I have ever met, is a refugee from Palestine.

Some people may support Ukraine because they have relatives there, because they see unfair it is to attack a peaceful country that had little military capability of its own.

It doesn't mean that they believe any war or a genocide happening is irrelevant just because they didn't post about it. People are to express whatever they wish. Championing support for one thing isn't an insult to another.

Are you suggesting this should stretch to other things? If I donate 100 quid to a go fund me for life changing treatment for a very sick child do I then have to find every sick child on go fund me and donate a proportionate amount. No I don't. Maybe I knew somebody with the same illness, maybe I knew the family who need help, maybe I know a lot about the new treatment because I work in the medical field and want to see more people have access to it. The reason wouldn't matter it would be my own.

YaMuvva · 16/05/2024 01:25

I do think that the Pro-Palestinian movement actually shows the incredible power of social media. Even if people are doing it to “join in” with the latest political fad (and yes it is because Palestinians are by far not the only persecuted group in the world, but they are the most well known) the movement has worked.

What I’d personally like to see is for people to take some time researching the whole context of the conflict and make their own mind up and not accept whichever video has popped up on their feed to be the whole unbiased truth.

Ger1atricMillennial · 16/05/2024 01:27

It's a good question- and something I am interested in hearing more about.

I have my personal opinions based on my beliefs and the media I have been exposed too. I also recognise that there are so many different versions of truth out there depending on other people's experience, there will never truly be an accurate version of the "truth".

For example, what do people hope to actually achieve in reality with thought processes like:

" I don't bother engaging with the other point of view because for me if you don't support Palestine, I actually don't even regard you as a human being worth engaging with"

Flyinghigh24 · 16/05/2024 01:38

Ger1atricMillennial · 16/05/2024 01:27

It's a good question- and something I am interested in hearing more about.

I have my personal opinions based on my beliefs and the media I have been exposed too. I also recognise that there are so many different versions of truth out there depending on other people's experience, there will never truly be an accurate version of the "truth".

For example, what do people hope to actually achieve in reality with thought processes like:

" I don't bother engaging with the other point of view because for me if you don't support Palestine, I actually don't even regard you as a human being worth engaging with"

Edited

Well to be honest I feel like that about the OPs post. Why would you complain about people posting about Palestine and question their motives? What do you hope to achieve by that? You don't have to engage with their posts just swipe past. It's giving the all lives matter argument where people felt uncomfortable or disagreed with the black lives matter movement simply because it brought light to an issue they don't really care about.

From my perspective I don't feel the need to convince anyone of my point of view. I have never in my life supported the killing of children, bombing of hospitals, targeting of innocent civilians, deliberate starvation of civilians (if you don't think it's deliberate watch videos of Israeli settlers destroying aid or the IDF pouring concrete in to wells that supply water to Gaza). If I have to convince you that is wrong then morally we will never agree. What people like the OP I'm guessing have a problem with is people on social media posting evidence that these things are happening since our own media gives us a highly sanitised and inaccurate version partially because the Israeli government is blocking foreign journalists access to Gaza. Wonder why? They want to pretend it's not happening and it's so difficult to do that when social media is bombarding you with images of dead, maimed or traumatised children. If it doesn't bother you than clearly there is a deeper reason there either racism or something else that motivates it and I simply don't have time to engage. Sorry!

TempestTost · 16/05/2024 01:40

I suppose they expect something similar to other social media posts about causes.

At least they aren't undermining their own cause by posting, at least. The ones that really make me roll my eyes are the posts about using less oil, on the very energy intensive internet. I always want to reply- get off the internet if you really want to reduce emissions! It's like Sting and his jet plane preaching about climate change.

Ger1atricMillennial · 16/05/2024 01:40

Flyinghigh24 · 16/05/2024 01:38

Well to be honest I feel like that about the OPs post. Why would you complain about people posting about Palestine and question their motives? What do you hope to achieve by that? You don't have to engage with their posts just swipe past. It's giving the all lives matter argument where people felt uncomfortable or disagreed with the black lives matter movement simply because it brought light to an issue they don't really care about.

From my perspective I don't feel the need to convince anyone of my point of view. I have never in my life supported the killing of children, bombing of hospitals, targeting of innocent civilians, deliberate starvation of civilians (if you don't think it's deliberate watch videos of Israeli settlers destroying aid or the IDF pouring concrete in to wells that supply water to Gaza). If I have to convince you that is wrong then morally we will never agree. What people like the OP I'm guessing have a problem with is people on social media posting evidence that these things are happening since our own media gives us a highly sanitised and inaccurate version partially because the Israeli government is blocking foreign journalists access to Gaza. Wonder why? They want to pretend it's not happening and it's so difficult to do that when social media is bombarding you with images of dead, maimed or traumatised children. If it doesn't bother you than clearly there is a deeper reason there either racism or something else that motivates it and I simply don't have time to engage. Sorry!

I understand that you are passionate about it, but I am genuinely asking do you think that you are going to improve the situation by liking posts and refusing to engage with people who have a different view?

Flyinghigh24 · 16/05/2024 02:10

If you are asking genuinely, it's the same reason why anyone would like a post or share it. Because you agree with the post or want to bring attention to what is being highlighted. However this is not an issue where there is moral ambiguity. It's pretty clear cut genocide. If you don't see it that's your problem and future generations will pick apart and study why people ignored or excused it.

Maybe others have the energy to try to change your point of view but I am more cynical. I don't believe people support Israel because they don't know the other side. They have their reasons which are either deeply racist (hatred of muslims/arabs/non white people or a sense of superiority where they believe they are allowed to violate others humanity etc) or corrupt (they stand to gain something from supporting the genocide that is being committed/or lose something from speaking out). Either that or they are wilfully ignorant. Whatever your reasons, other people may have energy to get in to an argument with you. The ones that I would bother to engage with are those who are genuinely ignorant or those in a positions of power who can be held to account like my MP who I have written to on this issue. But for the ordinary person no matter how many videos you show people of the suffering of Palestinians if they are morally and cognitively dissonant where they believe in rights for some people but not others, or that some things are immoral/inhumane like killing children but not when they are Palestinian then I can't help you. The UN Secretary General described Gaza as a 'graveyard for children'. If I have to convince you that is repugnant and a crime against humanity there is no hope for you in my eyes. I applaud those who post or engage with the other side they still have hope for you.

ShyPoet · 16/05/2024 02:11

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ShyPoet · 16/05/2024 02:13

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VestibuleVirgin · 16/05/2024 02:15

trekking1 · 15/05/2024 23:23

My question is not why do people post about it, but what they expect to achieve by posting "let's free Palestine" as if we have the power to do that by posting on social media. You are being deliberately obtuse

And you are being deliberately goady.
What is the point of your post on this particular social media forum, apart from to show that you are incapable of realising that millions of people expressing an opinion can force change.
Go to bed, Netyn

shearwater2 · 16/05/2024 02:20

Same with any other issue, because people like to have their views heard and interact/debate with others.

Have you just found out about social media and internet forums or something? 🤔

YaMuvva · 16/05/2024 02:22

Those people saying “You should be horrified about dead children and decent people care about Gaza” - do you really think you’re helping the cause with this smug demanding attitude? Grown adults don’t like being treated like naughty children or being told what to do.

I find a bit of an association with “You should CARE, I’m decent because I care look how NICE I am” and people who bully others into being like them and demanding they share the same views.

I’ll care about whatever the hell I want to care about, the Gaza is not the only atrocity happening, and I won’t be pushed by people who claim I’m indecent if I don’t share their views. I don’t pander to demands from overgrown toddlers stamping their feet. In return I’ll not call you names over what YOU choose to care about.

YaMuvva · 16/05/2024 02:24

VestibuleVirgin · 16/05/2024 02:15

And you are being deliberately goady.
What is the point of your post on this particular social media forum, apart from to show that you are incapable of realising that millions of people expressing an opinion can force change.
Go to bed, Netyn

Is MN social media?! I’d say it was a discussion forum

Sorry to digress 🤣

Flyinghigh24 · 16/05/2024 02:30

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Because this one our governments are supporting by supplying arms and political protection to the perpetrators. Because this one our media is trying to blame the victims and excuse the actions of those violating international law. Because this time when you are opposing the atrocity you are being accused of supporting Hamas and/or being antisemitic (even those who are semitic as well). If you don't care scroll past. Why does it bother you other people have a heart and conscience?

VestibuleVirgin · 16/05/2024 02:38

YaMuvva · 16/05/2024 02:24

Is MN social media?! I’d say it was a discussion forum

Sorry to digress 🤣

I am old! To me it is social and a form of media! But strictly speaking, perhaps not!
But a digression is useful sometime, no apology required!
😆😂

shearwater2 · 16/05/2024 02:46

I definitely class it as social media. It's a medium. It's interactive and social.

YaMuvva · 16/05/2024 02:48

VestibuleVirgin · 16/05/2024 02:38

I am old! To me it is social and a form of media! But strictly speaking, perhaps not!
But a digression is useful sometime, no apology required!
😆😂

Ooh good point! Maybe it’s both!

Happyinarcon · 16/05/2024 03:50

I think many people, maybe older ones have been around long enough to feel that the governments of the world will have wars regardless of any protests, marches or social media commentary. This means people disconnect and get on with life.

There is little point traumatising the public with stories about dead kids because nobody can stop that, and for every story about dead kids there is a follow up graphic rape story from the other team. I can’t do anything. Personally i stopped following the media a while ago for my own mental health.

DiddlySquatted · 16/05/2024 04:11

I suggest you go back to the social media you are seeing these posts on and politely ask the people doing the posting.

All you'll get is a stream of vitriolic abuse in return. The flag has changed but the hate is the same.

margymary · 16/05/2024 05:22

Far from an expert so hesitant to post , but wouldn't Hamas handing back the hostages be a good step?

Heatherbell1978 · 16/05/2024 06:18

I prefer to see my FB friends posting about causes that need human intervention and empathy than someone posting 500 photos of the cruise they made to Caribbean. There's a lot of distasteful stuff on SM and people trying to raise awareness of human suffering isn't one of them.

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