“Women and birthing people. “

[Riapia]

Who said that?
A doula on the PM Programme on BBC R4 tonight between 5.40 and 5.45.

Whilst driving I heard about the terrible shooting incident in the shopping centre in Sydney a few weeks back, and the victims were described as "female women"... 🤷🏼‍♀️🙄

Well that's very worrying to hear after your bigoted comments on here about, for just one example, middle class mothers.

Also, please stop reporting my posts.

Indeed, they do. So why the insistence of having characteristics of womanhood - such as birth and periods - recognised by all of society? As you say, they're a man!

A transman acknowledging that they have periods and can give birth IS acknowledging that they are, biologically, a woman. So, to that end, the word woman is enough, no?

I havent made a single report. I dont think youve said anything report worthy. Just ill informed.

If you have kids, do you think your presumably male partner would have conceived and carried the children if he could and it was the only safe way to proceed?

It is true that a lot of cis males dont want kids enough for that. We know because they are often more reluctant to seek and follow fertility advice than women.

What has that got to do with Jumpingthruhoops point?

And PLEASE stop with the 'cis' nonsense for god's sake. It's highly offensive.

They struggle to understand why a person would put themselves through emotional discomfort to have a baby. That is understandable when you partner with some of the most self centred humans we have - cis men.

I will not refer to you as cis if you or anyone else feel you arent cis, I'm used to adjusting to the labels used by non-cis people. But to differentiate groups of people, I will use cis, trans, and non binary in this conversation. I can use Other to speak of people who arent trans or non-binary, but also not cis.

We already have words to differentiate groups of people. Men and Women. All identity feels still come under these two. Only these two.

Cis is just.... not needed.

This

I think it's the case of making a service accessible and as comfortable as it can be for a group of people (we have no stats on how many people).. for me, as long as my own care isn't compromised and women are still equally included as they have been in this instance, then I don't think I get to decide on what the right or wrong care for someone else is regardless of my own feelings about how they chose to identify.

We know that maternity services are woeful and need to be significantly improved. I don't think that making it less accessible for some people is the way to fix that though. It's lobbying government and not continuing to vote for a government that wants to under cut the nhs and practices chronic underfunding. To me this feels like in fighting that will lead to a race to the bottom. Ultimately if you believe that trans men are women then why you wouldnt want them to receive maternity care that is holistic and meets their specific needs is beyond me providing that women are still receiving the same or better standards of care. We all know that birth and often pregnancy can be traumatic without the complexity of identifying as transgender, therefore to me that's going to be an additionally difficultand vulnerable time for someone who identifies that way. I certainly wouldn't want to make it any harder for anyone else than it absolutely needs to be and risk creating birth trauma and possibly difficulty in attachment and parenting going forwards.

I think that as long as women are included and visible and messages regarding their health and wellbeing are clear and relevant and common place, then I have no issue with additional information going out that will help transmen or non binary people access appropriate care.

Regardless of whether or not you feel its even possible to be transgender isn't really the question - there are a group of people who strongly believe that is the case and those people aren't any less deserving of maternity care they can engage with than anyone else. The worst case scenario is a person feels unable to engage with any maternity care and their health or health of the foetus suffers as a result. Knowing before you access a service that you'll feel welcome and safe is a big part of ensuring that doesn't happen.

Beat me to it!

You do know that, if recent reports are anything to go by, many biological women 'don't feel able to engage with maternity care' either?

People are so quick to condemn the govt for unfunding the NHS when it could be argued the NHS is wasting a ton of money it doesn't have rewriting medical literature to include the words 'birthing persons' rather than just 'women' - the most sufficient way to describe the only ones on Earth who can actually give birth.

That someone is willing to do the most 'womanly' thing possible, yet doesn't wish to 'identify' as one, makes zero sense.

As they say, 'facts don't care about feelings'.

Why is the litterateurs for make menopause not saying people and men?

Yes, this.

Regardless of whether or not you feel its even possible to be transgender isn't really the question - there are a group of people who strongly believe that is the case and those people aren't any less deserving of maternity care they can engage with than anyone else.

Of course they should receive excellent maternity care if they are pregnant. However if they "strongly believe they are transgender" they shouldn't be getting pregnant however much they want a baby as that requires an exclusively female biology.
It's up to them to bear the brunt if their assertions not other women. No one cares about gender stereotypes. We do should care about sex differences and they are massively important.

Is needed and thats what I will use when talking about groups of humans bar Others.

Nope. It's very offensive. Stop it.

Hayleyrabbit you’re not the boss of mn - give it a rest now.

@Mackmacking
you refer to yourself as providing a maternity service. Does that trigger or cause offense to the many trans men you care for?

So you will go out to deliberately offend the majority of women who do not identify as transgender and do not recognise 'cis' because WE find it highly offensive because it denotes accepting an ideology that harms us as a sex class, I see.

You clearly have an agenda when your primary objective should be the health of the women and babies in your care.

if trans women actually are women and trans men actually are men, then we should call those trans men, who are pregnant and accessing maternity services, men.

If twaw/tmam holds true, then why do we even have to say “birthing people” at all we can just say “men”.

the answer if course is that we can’t actually deny biological reality to that extent and pretend men can get pregnant and give birth. so why deny biological reality at all? All people who are pregnant and give birth are women. It’s not offensive to say so, it’s just true.

"However if they "strongly believe they are transgender" they shouldn't be getting pregnant however much they want a baby as that requires an exclusively female biology."

Realistically though you've no idea around the circumstances of anyone's pregnancy. You can't rule out sexual assault/coercion/abuse/failed contraception etc and it's unfair to say that someone has to or should be making certain medical decisions about their own healthcare and future just because they are transgender.

the answer if course is that we can’t actually deny biological reality to that extent and pretend men can get pregnant and give birth. so why deny biological reality at all? All people who are pregnant and give birth are women. It’s not offensive to say so, it’s just true

This is an excellent point.

All of this nonsense language people are having to come up with is to try to manage this fudge.

Trying to suggest we can have women who 'are men' - when ultimately everybody knows they aren't

Is needed and thats what I will use when talking about groups of humans bar Others.

Its offensive.