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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Train fine

232 replies

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 13:21

Firstly - I know rules are in place for a reason and that when it comes down to it , you don’t pay you get a fine . But this happened to my brother today and it made me really angry for him !

He collects his children from an area about 30 min from the city centre . He gets the train . He usually gets the bus to the city centre then the train , then gets off at the city centre on the way back and takes them for food in the city centre as a treat then gets the bus home . So he gets a single to get the children then he gets a family ticket back to the city centre . Today , he decided to stay on the train and not get off at the city centre but a few stops later at a station near where he lives . When he arrived at the station near his hours he saw police checking tickets at the exit and then he realised he hadn’t got the ticket back to this station , only to the city centre a few stops before . So he went on his app and purchased a ticket quickly for him and the children from the city centre to where he was getting off . He said he just didn’t think when he was on the train . But he paid it . If he had originally booked it back to this station it would have only been £1.20 more but he got the ticket on his app from the city centre to this stop that cost him £5.20 . He did it as he got off the train as he realised at that point when he saw the police , that his ticket wasn’t valid.

So , he then walked over and showed them and they said they saw that he had just done that and the time was different ( they could see it was for trains after as he had just booked it ) . He explained what had happened and that he just forgot so that’s why he had done it and that the fare had now been paid but they said that he wouldn’t have done that if they hadn’t been there so they gave him a fine - £50 if paid within a certain amount of time £100 if not . He isn’t confrontational and he had his children with him . He did say to them that he had paid the fare so did they really need to give him the fine and he said the officer was quite rude and said that that’s what happens when you try to dodge fares . He has said that if they weren’t there it’s likely that he wouldn’t have even realised he hadn’t paid for those stops on his return , but he did and he did pay for the ticket - so technically he has paid for the ticket and still has the fine .

Im really angry for him . It’s a small station ( he said there were about 15 officers ) it is in a not very nice area and and area where I imagine people would just get on and not pay ( it’s rarely staffed , just machines ) so I get that they are clamping down on it but he realised his mistake and he said he was really embarrassed as about 5 officers surrounded him and his children as though he was a criminal and the one who spoke to him was really rude .

Not that it’s relevant but he really is a good man . He goes every week to collect his children for the weekend from their mother who moved quite far away . He collects them and returns them on the train , he’s a great dad - he would never try to not pay a fare . He works hard … I know the officers don’t know this but when I know there are people that would deliberately not pay and when caught would give fake details - it just angers me . Surely they could have seen that he had paid ( so in this instance just warned him ) but to slap a fine on him and treat him like that when he was with his children it’s just made me so angry .

YABU - he didn’t pay , he shouldn’t have forgot , tough luck

YANBU - the officer could have been lenient or at least not treated him like a criminal

OP posts:
OneTC · 11/05/2024 15:05

If a train is running and a junkie is riding without paying how it's that costing me or you more? Unless he sets fire to the seats or something or the train is impossibly full to the point he's excluded an actual paying customer. And then it doesn't cost anymore anyway because the excluded person still paid.

The cost is in running the train. It could be swarming with fare jumpers and would add precisely zero to the daily cost of running the service

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:06

ZipZapZoom · 11/05/2024 13:35

The officer was right though, if they hadn't been there he wouldn't have brought the correct ticket and dodged the fare.

He only brought the ticket because he knew the fine would be more than the ticket. He thought he would get away with it and has probably done so in the past. Lesson learned he won't try to get away with it again.

Oh please. Massive massive nasty assumption made here. Stop it. The world doesn't need this kind of keyboard bully

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 15:07

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 15:03

No. You have to pay the fare. It makes no difference when you pay it. It’s bloody commonsense - a quality much lacking on MN.

Yes - many times in the past I have gone to stations that had no staff and the machines were down ( before apps ) so I have had to either pay on the train , or at the other end after explaining . So in that situation it’s been paid after . How did they know I wasn’t a fare dodger ?

In fact I remember once being in that situation and no one got on the train and the end station wasn’t manned either so I didn’t pay as I had no way to!

OP posts:
tridento · 11/05/2024 15:07

murasaki · 11/05/2024 13:41

If you don't want to be treated like a criminal in front of your children, don't behave like one in front of your children.

I don't believe that this is the first time he's done this. Childen aren't a get out card.

Gosh the keyboard bullies are out in force today. We don't need you and your fabricated accusations.

ClareBlue · 11/05/2024 15:08

It's run on an expectation of a revenue level. If 10 pay the level is divided by 10. If 20 pay by 20. If non pay it doesn't run for anybody. See how it works.

oakleaffy · 11/05/2024 15:08

Scattery · 11/05/2024 15:00

I'm in the minority here, but busting a man for fare-dodging after he's paid the difference and approached the cops on his own, seems over the top.

A lot of Mumsnet are "rulez are rulez" type people without asking what's behind the rule. At the end of the day, the chap paid for the ticket, then was fined anyway. So where does the money go? Has anyone seen the absurd UK train prices lately? Who profits from these fines?

And how does it protect the public?

I can't get worked up about fare dodgers costing a private rail company money. I really can't.

Maybe if that private company shelled out for extra staff on trains, extra carriages during rush hour so that people aren't crammed like cattle, paid for manned ticket booths instead of trying to cut them and force everyone to use (not always in service) machines. Maybe then I'd be happy to see fare-dodgers penalised because then I'd know the money was going back into the system rather than lining someone's pockets. But I don't give a shit about a CEO's salary and therefore I can't get worked up about fare-dodging.

Hear hear!

Re Nationalise the lot!
The Fares are a bloody outrage compared to Europe.
Delays and breakdowns common.

murasaki · 11/05/2024 15:09

OneTC · 11/05/2024 15:05

If a train is running and a junkie is riding without paying how it's that costing me or you more? Unless he sets fire to the seats or something or the train is impossibly full to the point he's excluded an actual paying customer. And then it doesn't cost anymore anyway because the excluded person still paid.

The cost is in running the train. It could be swarming with fare jumpers and would add precisely zero to the daily cost of running the service

TFL apparently lost 130m to fare dodgers in 22/23. If you think that isn't thought about when considering price raises then I'm genuinely surprised.

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:09

@ZipZapZoom

The point is you cant really ever truly know someone. Just because he told you it's the first time he's ever travelled and not paid the whole fare doesn't mean it was.
No. The point is the OL has a far better understanding and knowledge of her brother than some random bored bully on MN does

murasaki · 11/05/2024 15:12

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:09

@ZipZapZoom

The point is you cant really ever truly know someone. Just because he told you it's the first time he's ever travelled and not paid the whole fare doesn't mean it was.
No. The point is the OL has a far better understanding and knowledge of her brother than some random bored bully on MN does

I don't think you know what bullying is.

Pointing out someone tried to fare dodge then tried to retrofit a solution on spotting the police is not bullying.

HTH.

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:12

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 14:29

For everyone saying he probably regularly does this - the extra was £1.20 . Thats how much extra he would have had to pay for the tickets for the few extra stations . Why on earth would he pay for a part of the journey and then just try to dodge the fare for the rest because it’s £1.20 more ? He is not short of money , paying it wouldn’t have been an issue he just didn’t think

Don't worry about them OP. This is MN. Bored sad little f@ckers with nothing happy in their lives enjoy winding posters up by insisting their fabrications are right. They are a complete blight on society. It's a shame as they ruin threads by upsetting people. Decent people don't do this

Really OP. They don't know your brother. You do. And it is quite reasonable to assume people make mistakes like your db did when they run on auto pilot and buy the ticket they usually do.

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:13

@murasaki
Go away. You are boring

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 15:14

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:09

@ZipZapZoom

The point is you cant really ever truly know someone. Just because he told you it's the first time he's ever travelled and not paid the whole fare doesn't mean it was.
No. The point is the OL has a far better understanding and knowledge of her brother than some random bored bully on MN does

Exactly my point @tridento 👏🏻

OP posts:
Dotjones · 11/05/2024 15:17

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:05

He didn't TRY to fare dodge. He made a mistake. There is a massive difference. Trying to fare dodge is an intentional act

It's irrelevant that it was unintentional. Fare evasion is a strict liability offence - intention or otherwise doesn't matter, the offence is the same.

It can be harsh when people make innocent mistakes but that's true with a lot of laws. Plenty of people are jailed for errors.

Personally I don't think fare evasion should be a criminal offence, but it is.

murasaki · 11/05/2024 15:17

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:13

@murasaki
Go away. You are boring

Now that is teetering close to the edge of bullying.

MinnieMountain · 11/05/2024 15:17

I heard a ticket inspector use his discretion to not fine someone recently. The women genuinely hasn’t realised that more than one train company operates that route and they had tickets for the wrong one.

In your brother’s case, it sounds like the police didn’t want to risk pissing off other people.

OneTC · 11/05/2024 15:18

murasaki · 11/05/2024 15:09

TFL apparently lost 130m to fare dodgers in 22/23. If you think that isn't thought about when considering price raises then I'm genuinely surprised.

Of course that's their view

Do they run extra services to accommodate the jumpers?

If a train is running you have a fixed cost. If it's full of fare payers then you reduce that cost and possibly turn a profit. If it's empty you don't. Trains are rarely full to bursting

TripleDaisySummer · 11/05/2024 15:20

He did say he had a good mind to get a refund on the app for the ticket that he had paid for and still got a fine for ( anger talking ) but he couldn’t have done that as they scanned it as a ticket that had been used ! So it’s paid and scanned as being used but then still fined !

He can appeal and see what they say.

As PP said many people would just cross platforms and get back on train they should have got off either get off there or but ticket.

We legitimately had to do this at small local station in city as driver forgot to unlock the doors - no one could get on or off despite train stopping- so got off next stop and went back.

OneTC · 11/05/2024 15:23

When they do the stings here they watch for people crossing back to the other side

FriendlyNeighbourhoodAccountant · 11/05/2024 15:27

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 15:03

No. You have to pay the fare. It makes no difference when you pay it. It’s bloody commonsense - a quality much lacking on MN.

Actually this is incorrect. You have to have a ticket when boarding the train unless you're boarding at a station without a ticket machine.

But also the OPs brother didn't have a valid ticket.. he bought a ticket for the same route but for a later time (the next train) so didn't have a valid ticket on the journey he actually took.

NoTouch · 11/05/2024 15:42

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 15:03

No. You have to pay the fare. It makes no difference when you pay it. It’s bloody commonsense - a quality much lacking on MN.

He paid for a ticket on a later train. He did not have a valid ticket for the train he was on.

"Bloody" common sense tells you paying for a ticket on the 9:20pm train is not a get out of jail card when you get caught out fare dodging without a ticket for the 7:20pm train.

TheChippendenSpook · 11/05/2024 15:43

Police officers don't check train tickets. Even BTP officers don't check tickets. They will get involved in disputes but don't check tickets.

OneTC · 11/05/2024 15:44

NoTouch · 11/05/2024 15:42

He paid for a ticket on a later train. He did not have a valid ticket for the train he was on.

"Bloody" common sense tells you paying for a ticket on the 9:20pm train is not a get out of jail card when you get caught out fare dodging without a ticket for the 7:20pm train.

Normal train services aren't sold on a reserved tickets basis. There isn't really any such thing as a "future" ticket, except at peak/off peak crossover

I've bought one on the train before for a future train and been able to scan out with it just fine

SwedishEdith · 11/05/2024 15:47

I get off at one of two city centre stops for work. All trains stop at station A but they don't all stop at B. The fare is exactly the same. I had the app, mistakenly, set to buy a ticket to station A when I was getting off at B. I got pulled over and the inspector had a stern word with me and let it go "this time". Power crazy madness. I had paid the correct fare for that trip. There was no loss. The ticket just had a different station name on. To make it more confusing, some tickets even say the city name rather than the station to reflect that the price is the same. But they don't all do that. Almost set up to try to catch you out.

ARichtGoodDram · 11/05/2024 15:48

It’s obviously a station with a massive fare dodging problem if they’ve done such a staff intensive operation so they’re going to have loads of people claiming it was their first time ever.

theres bound to be people, like your brother, who’ve get caught out the first time they do something, but that’s just life and you just have to accept that you’re not always as lucky as some others. You wouldn’t expect your brother to be excused from speeding just because it was his first time being caught.

Miyagi99 · 11/05/2024 16:18

They could have used their discretion, bit jobsworth imho.