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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Train fine

232 replies

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 13:21

Firstly - I know rules are in place for a reason and that when it comes down to it , you don’t pay you get a fine . But this happened to my brother today and it made me really angry for him !

He collects his children from an area about 30 min from the city centre . He gets the train . He usually gets the bus to the city centre then the train , then gets off at the city centre on the way back and takes them for food in the city centre as a treat then gets the bus home . So he gets a single to get the children then he gets a family ticket back to the city centre . Today , he decided to stay on the train and not get off at the city centre but a few stops later at a station near where he lives . When he arrived at the station near his hours he saw police checking tickets at the exit and then he realised he hadn’t got the ticket back to this station , only to the city centre a few stops before . So he went on his app and purchased a ticket quickly for him and the children from the city centre to where he was getting off . He said he just didn’t think when he was on the train . But he paid it . If he had originally booked it back to this station it would have only been £1.20 more but he got the ticket on his app from the city centre to this stop that cost him £5.20 . He did it as he got off the train as he realised at that point when he saw the police , that his ticket wasn’t valid.

So , he then walked over and showed them and they said they saw that he had just done that and the time was different ( they could see it was for trains after as he had just booked it ) . He explained what had happened and that he just forgot so that’s why he had done it and that the fare had now been paid but they said that he wouldn’t have done that if they hadn’t been there so they gave him a fine - £50 if paid within a certain amount of time £100 if not . He isn’t confrontational and he had his children with him . He did say to them that he had paid the fare so did they really need to give him the fine and he said the officer was quite rude and said that that’s what happens when you try to dodge fares . He has said that if they weren’t there it’s likely that he wouldn’t have even realised he hadn’t paid for those stops on his return , but he did and he did pay for the ticket - so technically he has paid for the ticket and still has the fine .

Im really angry for him . It’s a small station ( he said there were about 15 officers ) it is in a not very nice area and and area where I imagine people would just get on and not pay ( it’s rarely staffed , just machines ) so I get that they are clamping down on it but he realised his mistake and he said he was really embarrassed as about 5 officers surrounded him and his children as though he was a criminal and the one who spoke to him was really rude .

Not that it’s relevant but he really is a good man . He goes every week to collect his children for the weekend from their mother who moved quite far away . He collects them and returns them on the train , he’s a great dad - he would never try to not pay a fare . He works hard … I know the officers don’t know this but when I know there are people that would deliberately not pay and when caught would give fake details - it just angers me . Surely they could have seen that he had paid ( so in this instance just warned him ) but to slap a fine on him and treat him like that when he was with his children it’s just made me so angry .

YABU - he didn’t pay , he shouldn’t have forgot , tough luck

YANBU - the officer could have been lenient or at least not treated him like a criminal

OP posts:
zingally · 11/05/2024 14:43

Similar happened to me once, the difference being that I was 22, stupid, and running late.

I'd got to my small station, fully planning on buying a ticket, like usual, but there were no machines back then, and a long queue of people waiting at the counter.
I was running a bit late, and my train was literally coming. If I hadn't got that one, I'd have been late for work. So I jumped on it.
Arrived at my destination and a load of cops there. I got caught, gave my excuse, got fined. Really annoying, but it was what it was.

And I made sure I got to my station earlier in future!

MummyDummyNow · 11/05/2024 14:45

He's "a good man" because he collects his children every week? Ffs no wonder men get away with so much if they're deemed "good" because they look after their children once a week.

Bumblebeeinatree · 11/05/2024 14:45

The police don't know that he doesn't do the same thing every time, and he just got caught this time. It's unfortunate if this was a one off mistake, but that's life.

MummyDummyNow · 11/05/2024 14:45

And yes, he should have bought the correct tickets for his whole journey.

ClareBlue · 11/05/2024 14:46

What's this stuff about it being a station where you think people regularly fare dodge. You judge other people and then type a paragraph of how honest and great your brother is. Well he is one of the other people now. He didn't pay the fare, got caught, pays the penalty.

shuffleofftobuffalo · 11/05/2024 14:46

There are regularly teams of police/revenue protection officers at my local station. And others along the line I use.

I get your point about it seeming unfair, but the officer was right - he wouldn't have bought the additional ticket if they weren't there. I'll bet this wasn't the first time either?

On the point about the police - the fact he has his kids there and is a great dad who collects his kids every week doesn't meant he's not a potential threat. I've seen more than one respectable looking person suited and booted kicking off when realising they're getting a penalty fare. There's a reason they have the police there and a reason they do what they do.

CassandraProphesying · 11/05/2024 14:52

So , he then walked over and showed them and they said they saw that he had just done that and the time was different ( they could see it was for trains after as he had just booked it)

So was his ticket valid for the journey he had done or was it only valid for trains after the time he travelled?
That is key.
If the latter, then despite having paid the rail company more money than his journey was worth, his ticket was not valid and a penalty fare is payable.
If the former, then despite anyone’s opinion on what his intentions may have been, National Rail rules are clear - if you hold a valid ticket when you are asked to produce it, you cannot be charged a penalty fare. And if that is the case he should challenge it.

Davros · 11/05/2024 14:53

I think he just has to suck it up buttercup!
I got stopped by the Police a few months ago for driving without insurance, I had no idea. The car is registered in DH's name and all the renewal stuff went to him by email, it certainly didn't come in the post as I open all of it. I explained to the copper and that DH has got Parkinson's and can't deal with admin. He was sympathetic but I had to take out emergency insurance there and then or he would seize the car. He read me my rights, the only thing I didn't have to do was get out and spread 'em. I was given the option to go to court and make my case but no guarantees. I decided to pay the £300 fine and get 8 points on my licence, first I've ever had in 35 years of driving. My view was I had commited the offence, despite having very reasonable excuses, so I took the punishment

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 14:53

MummyDummyNow · 11/05/2024 14:45

He's "a good man" because he collects his children every week? Ffs no wonder men get away with so much if they're deemed "good" because they look after their children once a week.

What?

OP posts:
OneTC · 11/05/2024 14:55

CassandraProphesying · 11/05/2024 14:52

So , he then walked over and showed them and they said they saw that he had just done that and the time was different ( they could see it was for trains after as he had just booked it)

So was his ticket valid for the journey he had done or was it only valid for trains after the time he travelled?
That is key.
If the latter, then despite having paid the rail company more money than his journey was worth, his ticket was not valid and a penalty fare is payable.
If the former, then despite anyone’s opinion on what his intentions may have been, National Rail rules are clear - if you hold a valid ticket when you are asked to produce it, you cannot be charged a penalty fare. And if that is the case he should challenge it.

He'll 100% get it refunded

ClareBlue · 11/05/2024 14:55

GrannyOgre · 11/05/2024 14:04

He had a valid ticket though. I believe the terms and conditions are that you shouldn’t be charged a penalty fare if you have a valid ticket but need to pay an excess because you have travelled further or used it on a service that the ticket isn’t valid on (eg an off peak ticket on a peak train), unless it is obvious you were trying to fare dodge eg you only bought a ticket to the first stop out of London on a train going to Glasgow. He only needed to pay the difference in the fare between his ticket and the correct fare at the first opportunity ie to the train manager, ticket inspector or barrier guard at the other end. (or before boarding if the mistake was already known). You can’t do it on an app.

Buying a new ticket makes him look guilty of trying to fare dodge IMO. If he had gone to the barriers and said he needed to pay an excess fare as they decided to come straight home instead of stopping in town or he made a mistake out of habit, he probably would have only had to pay £1.20.

Exactly. And it works. I missed a stop and stayed on to the next better station for getting back and went to barrier and said this. Showed ticket I had and paid excess. That's what you do if you make a honest mistake, not fraudantly try and make it look like you paid for the journey from the start.

murasaki · 11/05/2024 14:58

People like him are why trains fares go up and up. He needs to own this, and next time not try to get away with it and think he'll get off scot free because he's got kids. It's extremely unlikely that every time he collects his kids he gets off in the city. Most times, sure, but every time?
Hopefully they learned a lesson too.

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 14:59

MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 11/05/2024 13:36

Why should the police believe him?

Because he’d got the appropriate ticket! I’d definitely be appealing and expecting to win. The voting on this thread is crazy.

OneTC · 11/05/2024 14:59

People like him are why trains fares go up and up

No

Scattery · 11/05/2024 15:00

I'm in the minority here, but busting a man for fare-dodging after he's paid the difference and approached the cops on his own, seems over the top.

A lot of Mumsnet are "rulez are rulez" type people without asking what's behind the rule. At the end of the day, the chap paid for the ticket, then was fined anyway. So where does the money go? Has anyone seen the absurd UK train prices lately? Who profits from these fines?

And how does it protect the public?

I can't get worked up about fare dodgers costing a private rail company money. I really can't.

Maybe if that private company shelled out for extra staff on trains, extra carriages during rush hour so that people aren't crammed like cattle, paid for manned ticket booths instead of trying to cut them and force everyone to use (not always in service) machines. Maybe then I'd be happy to see fare-dodgers penalised because then I'd know the money was going back into the system rather than lining someone's pockets. But I don't give a shit about a CEO's salary and therefore I can't get worked up about fare-dodging.

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 15:00

Davros · 11/05/2024 14:53

I think he just has to suck it up buttercup!
I got stopped by the Police a few months ago for driving without insurance, I had no idea. The car is registered in DH's name and all the renewal stuff went to him by email, it certainly didn't come in the post as I open all of it. I explained to the copper and that DH has got Parkinson's and can't deal with admin. He was sympathetic but I had to take out emergency insurance there and then or he would seize the car. He read me my rights, the only thing I didn't have to do was get out and spread 'em. I was given the option to go to court and make my case but no guarantees. I decided to pay the £300 fine and get 8 points on my licence, first I've ever had in 35 years of driving. My view was I had commited the offence, despite having very reasonable excuses, so I took the punishment

That’s awful ! Good job you didn’t put a post on MN or you would have been accused of doing this regularly and on purpose 🤣

Yeah he will just have to accept it and I know he will just pay it and probably won’t appeal . Just made me really angry for him - I think just knowing what he’s like and how he would have felt having the police surrounding him like that .

I remember an ex of mine , years ago - he used to always dodge fares purposely and didn’t care about getting caught as he would give a fake name ( years and years ago , a short relationship and he was one who didn’t even have ID so didn’t care about them searching him ) he never got caught! He must have done hundreds of trips and it just got me mad that someone like him does it and gets away and then someone makes a mistake and gets treated like a criminal

OP posts:
ClareBlue · 11/05/2024 15:01

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 14:59

Because he’d got the appropriate ticket! I’d definitely be appealing and expecting to win. The voting on this thread is crazy.

He bought the ticket after he did the journey. You have to have the correct ticket when you take the journey. It's not too difficult to grasp.

NoTouch · 11/05/2024 15:01

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 14:59

Because he’d got the appropriate ticket! I’d definitely be appealing and expecting to win. The voting on this thread is crazy.

He bought a ticket for a later train on same route (he couldn't buy a ticket for that train because the journey had ended)

murasaki · 11/05/2024 15:02

OneTC · 11/05/2024 14:59

People like him are why trains fares go up and up

No

Obviously not the only reason, but fare dodgers are factored in. A bit like shoplifting. There are climate issues re food, and transport costs, but also shoplifting. With trains it's dubious franchise arrangements, lack of use but also fare dodgers.

These things have several factors and thieves are one of them.

burnoutbabe · 11/05/2024 15:02

SilentSilhouette · 11/05/2024 14:37

He probably could have gone to the opposite platform, taken a train back to the city centre then purchased a ticket back to that station and it would have been fine!

I've missed a stop before with the kids as one was faffing so had to get off at the next one then go back. The ticket person at the station was lovely! He even said there were taxis outside if I wanted to get back quicker!

Uk trains are so expensive compared to the rest of Europe so it's not surprising people try and dodge!

Yes I would have done that. Just gone back to where I should have been.

Though i regularly get off one station extra in my long train journey to parents -the cost to the stations from London is identical and often my parents go to one town over the other last minute to pick me up. Never an issue.

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 15:03

ClareBlue · 11/05/2024 15:01

He bought the ticket after he did the journey. You have to have the correct ticket when you take the journey. It's not too difficult to grasp.

No. You have to pay the fare. It makes no difference when you pay it. It’s bloody commonsense - a quality much lacking on MN.

Justnavigating · 11/05/2024 15:03

Scattery · 11/05/2024 15:00

I'm in the minority here, but busting a man for fare-dodging after he's paid the difference and approached the cops on his own, seems over the top.

A lot of Mumsnet are "rulez are rulez" type people without asking what's behind the rule. At the end of the day, the chap paid for the ticket, then was fined anyway. So where does the money go? Has anyone seen the absurd UK train prices lately? Who profits from these fines?

And how does it protect the public?

I can't get worked up about fare dodgers costing a private rail company money. I really can't.

Maybe if that private company shelled out for extra staff on trains, extra carriages during rush hour so that people aren't crammed like cattle, paid for manned ticket booths instead of trying to cut them and force everyone to use (not always in service) machines. Maybe then I'd be happy to see fare-dodgers penalised because then I'd know the money was going back into the system rather than lining someone's pockets. But I don't give a shit about a CEO's salary and therefore I can't get worked up about fare-dodging.

Agreed!

He did say he had a good mind to get a refund on the app for the ticket that he had paid for and still got a fine for ( anger talking ) but he couldn’t have done that as they scanned it as a ticket that had been used ! So it’s paid and scanned as being used but then still fined !

OP posts:
Itsonlymashadow · 11/05/2024 15:04

There's really clear communication if you don't have tbe correct ticket for your journey you face a fine.

Whether by accident or on purpose he didn't have the right ticket. Had the police not been there he would have never rectified his mistake.

He says it was by accident and he says the police was rude and threatening. But what u don't get is why you are trying g to fi d iht what you can do on his behalf. He is an adult. He was dealt with by tvepolice because he didn't something he shouldn't have done. If he had a problem with it, surley he can deal with it.

And wether he had a basis for a complaint isn't based on how nice a guy his sister thinks he is he is.

My dbro is great! That doesn't mean he can get away with more than people that I don't think are great.

BIossomtoes · 11/05/2024 15:05

So it’s paid and scanned as being used but then still fined !

That’s good. They’ve provided him with grounds for a successful appeal.

tridento · 11/05/2024 15:05

Hereyoume · 11/05/2024 13:24

He wouldn't have bought the ticket if the officers weren't there.

He tried to fair dodge. He got caught.

He didn't TRY to fare dodge. He made a mistake. There is a massive difference. Trying to fare dodge is an intentional act