Auriol Grey's manslaughter sentence overturned for killing cyclist. Correct decision?

[Locutus2000]

Reported in multiple outlets - BBC.

Mixed feelings - it was a complex case with no winners on any side.

You absolutely cannot deprive someone of their liberty without a proper assessment of whether they lack capacity. It’s a serious issue, with good reason because it’s open to all kinds of abuse. We moved away from institutionalisation to care in the community, which is by no means satisfactory, but moving back to forced incarceration is not the answer here - more funding for proper mental health support and treatment needs to be provided so that these cases can be addressed before tragedies like these happen.

I'm not advocating for people to be preemptively locked up. But nor is "but we do care in the community now" a reason why someone can continue to be a danger in their community.

I agree, on many levels with care in the community, but it's not without failings. Mostly failing the people supposed to be recieving care

Where did I say that those individuals should not be assessed? Safely of the general public should take precedence.

Who is desperate to defend a killer ? For myself and several other posters I’ve followed, we’re presenting facts related to mental health and the provision of support for that, as opposed to the frothing you so beautifully demonstrate in your post. The woman has severe mental health issues - as evidenced by her place in a residential home for the disabled. Do you think the LA provides those to anyone who asks ? No, of course they don’t. You have to have a significant level of disability to be offered a place in that kind of facility. Something you and quite a few other posters seem to have forgotten. And certainly not an excuse for the discriminatory and ableist language you used to describe someone with mental health and learning disabilities.

What the fuck is going on with this thread? A woman with clearly very serious physical and cognitive disabilities has been described as a vile creature, a fucking lunatic, a crazy bitch, and similar. Is there something in the water? Its honestly terrifying that some of these commenters might be called to serve on a jury one day.

I agree. It is quite shocking. Easy to see how a mob is raised.

But blaming Celia her for own death and slandering all cyclists are redeeming character traits?

It is the dehumanising language being used. The points can be made without the type of language being used.

In my opinion, the Council are also culpable for the pitiful layout of the space. They make no alterations to ‘foot’ path but simply ‘designate’ it shared. This is not really becoming more cycling friendly. It is pretending it has become more cycling friendly by just stating a designation. Put words on a page, and abracadabra, it is transformed into something else. It hasn’t been widened, street furniture looked at, tarmacked, or colour coded. It is a perfect storm to pit pedestrians and cyclists against each other.

@Cailleach1 I totally agree. They made it very unsafe for anyone disabled.

It was designated a shared use pavement when the road was built in 1972. The road is one side, there are houses all along the other. It cannot be widened; it’s a physical impossibility. What difference would tarmac make? Or colour coding? Incidentally this was the first and only incident of this kind to occur on the ring road in 50 years.

There’s been an undercurrent all the way through this thread from some, that those with similar mental health and learning disabilities should have to be supervised in public. The point is that this is not easy to do because the threshold for removing someone’s liberty is set very high for good reason. The safety of the general public should absolutely take precedence but until this or any new incoming government commit to addressing the current state of mental health services in this country incidences like this are going to keep happening.

There’s a catalogue of failures on the part of all the agencies involved with AG, not least that of whoever made the decision to move her out of supervised residential accommodation into independent living, and also the police and social services who failed to investigate her family circumstances.

I worked with adults presenting like AG for a few years a long time ago.

They have spent a lot of time in residential homes being taught right and wrong to allow them the chance to become more independent. Because of their learning difficulties, their understanding of right and wrong is very literal. It means that they see anything wrong as very very bad. As such, they do tend to get very angry when they face people doing something wrong that they interpret as very bad. They sometimes struggle with controlling their anger. More importantly, they associate doing something very bad with punishment.

Sadly I often experienced the outcome of this with violence between residents or even themselves (when they feel they should be punished).

I totally recognise this behaviour in this situation. It was still very wrong.

The lack of compassion for Celia Ward, and the driver as well the contempt for cyclists also runs through this thread. It is possible to be pleased that she is out of prison without blaming Celia or cyclists.

You are fight the various services have failed all involved here but Auriol's own family should definitely take some responsibility too.

Exactly this. There are so many more pavement cyclists since Covid.
I am severely sight impaired/almost blind but I am able to walk about locally without problems.
I have been knocked over twice by pavement cyclists. Thankfully no serious injuries so far. Before losing so much of my sight I was a cyclist. If I occasionally used shared paths I used to actually stop if I saw a pedestrian walking towards me. Many pedestrians walk on the wrong side of shared paths and some wander from side to side. Many have dogs which wander all over as well.
The cyclist in this tragic case should have stopped when seeing Auriol Grey approaching, even if she thought it was a shared path. When the case was originally in the news there was a clear video of the event; which was taken down quite quickly. It was clear in the video that Grey did not make contact with the cyclist. The cyclist lost control of her cycle when reacting to Auriol Grey shouting/gesticulating. I and other people I know looked carefully at streetview at the time and there was no indication that the pavement at that point was shared use. No signs or markings at all for quite some distance in either direction. Many cyclists, particularly older ones, are uncomfortable riding on very busy roads. That particular road was very busy. However that does not mean that these cyclists should ride on the pavement instead. Just use a bus/taxi or walk instead.

Are they not taught that violence is worse than any other wrongdoing?

No one is blaming the cyclist - considering whether her actions were in any way contributory or would have agitated AG isn’t apportioning blame. And l think it’s reasonable for people to consider the actions of cyclists in their own experience - it’s all relevant to the discussion.

And I’m sorry but nothing excuses the discriminatory and ableist language used towards disabled people throughout the thread. One poster even suggested that the posters who supported AG must be disabled in a similar way themselves and identify with her, and that disabled people expect to be put beyond reproach simply because they have protected characteristics. I think that’s utterly reprehensible, and a new low for MN. Racist or sexist terminology wouldn’t be tolerated so why do you think it’s acceptable to speak to and about disabled people in such discriminatory terms ?

No one is blaming the cyclist

Quite a few posters have. There was a suggestion at one point that she was too old to be on a bike and brought it on herself. And plenty more who say she should have dismounted.

And now there has been a fatality. You have to start from here. I see the bicycle also veered off as it went over a manhole cover. It was parallel with the lamp post. It doesn’t look the most even surface. Bits of paving, some tarmacked spots. Uneven terrain can make a bike veer off. Smoother terrain is safer. Like driving a car on a dirt road as opposed to a tarmacked road. Just one simple example what they could (not should, I don’t know that) do, I’m going back to the Netherlands again. On roads where you cannot widen footpaths, they run a colour strip each side along the road. The colour code shows if that spot is for a bicycle. The car is the guest on this spot, and the cyclist has priority. Drivers do respect this. If you are pretending you are a cycling friendly area, you actually have to change your mindset on traffic. It’s not without cost.

Of course, but for the pedestrian and cyclist meeting on a rotten spot narrowed by the lamp post, the fatal consequences might not have occurred. However, more people are cycling now. It may occur more often. You don’t wait until it is too many. Good planning and practices are preventative, and you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. These are available to see from other countries.

All the pitch fork waving posters on here who want Ms Grey hung, drawn and quatered because they absolutely know 100% that Ms Grey deliberately pushed Mrs Ward into the road under the oncoming car - you should have volunteered your expert, infallible proof at the trials. You clearly know far more than the Judges, the Prosecution and the Police who investigated.

There were two trials, the first was deemed a mistrial because the first jury were deadlocked and could not agree. Now, if there was this mythical proof that Ms Grey actually pushed Mrs Ward they would have been shown it, posters saying it was withheld because it showed Mrs Ward dying are talking out of their arses. Juries see and hear a lot worse than that, if there had been such incontrovertible evidence they would have been shown it. The Court would have been cleared if the Judge deemed it was not suitable for the general public in the Court to see.

The eminently qualified Appeal Court Judges stated that the Judge in the second trial where the conviction was obtained should never have sent the case to the Jury, ergo it should have been dismissed. That is a very harsh criticism of the Judge at that trial, also of the Prosecution/CPS.

The language used to describe Ms Grey on here is utterly abhorrent.

Not something in the water. This is the attitude that many people on Mumsnet have towards disabled people and now they feel they have a valid target for their hatred, they're letting rip.

I have the same type of experience as this poster, having been a support worker for the disabled for many years. With many conditions things tend to be seen in black and white, and when you couple this with anger management problems, it becomes very difficult. This is not an excuse for what AG did, but offers an insight into the way these things develop. Add to this the appalling state of mental health services and cash strapped local authorities for whom mental health provision is just one of many priorities, and you can appreciate the inevitability of incidents like this.

I disagree that they were blaming her for her own demise. It’s reasonable to consider whether her actions were in any way contributory, but that’s different from victim blaming. But again, it doesn’t excuse the awful language used towards disabled people throughout the thread.

Cycling should be a safe and viable form of transport for most people. You'd never tell a car driver to give up driving