Auriol Grey's manslaughter sentence overturned for killing cyclist. Correct decision?

[Locutus2000]

Reported in multiple outlets - BBC.

Mixed feelings - it was a complex case with no winners on any side.

I didn't know it was an animal specific term sorry I didn't mean it like that

@SluggyMuggy of course however, cyclists don't belong on the road either. Your example can also suit many people not just the disabled but people on AirPods, or on phones where they are distracted and can be spooked by a cyclist but in this case the woman died by a car because she was aggressively waved off and been brushed off to the road.

The woman who died is a woman who was unfortunate to cross paths with AG which is why she died and which is why AG is a danger to the public.

She isn’t psychopathic, she has brain damage and has had multiple brain surgeries causing learning difficulties and mental health problems. And she didn’t ’stroll off to go shopping’. She left the scene and was found by a bystander, who took her home. You don’t seem to appreciate that she likely isn’t capable of recognising the consequences of her actions because the part of the brain controlling cause and effect has been damaged. It’s akin to saying those with Autism and ADHD are just badly behaved.

AG was in a residential home for the disabled. You absolutely cannot gain access to that type of establishment without a significant degree of impairment. The LA moved her out into an assisted living flat, which took away any degree of supervision and when they were made aware of the fact that she was causing a public nuisance they took no action. In my view that decision should be reviewed because it was clearly the wrong one. Mental health provision in this country is appalling and AG is by no means the first example of someone with MH problems ending up in prison because their needs have either gone unaddressed or provision is inadequate.

The police and other authorities involved didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory either. AG has family and no attempt was made to locate or inform them of the incident or that AG was in custody - they found out when a reporter came knocking. I think that’s shameful.

It's 'rehouse' for humans, but house and home are interchanged so it shouldn't have been a mistake to jump on!

It strikes me as a complex accident, perhaps avoidable if the council had thought through whether it was a safe shared space or not, perhaps avoidable if AG had moved out the way, perhaps avoidable if the poor victim had got off her bike.

Most of us have had times in our life where we've thought 'phew, I made a bad decision there, a few more seconds and it would've had a very different outcome'.

If the victim had not died, she may have been one of those people, we just don't know.

AG was a vulnerable adult and was wrong in her actions but I don't believe it's proven she pushed anyone and I do believe she may have been fearful of people cycling towards her. The victim might have wobbled whoever she passed. We just don't know. A perfect storm of poor path, older cyclist, vulnerable adult. But I don't think it met the criteria for manslaughter.

And AG has spent a year in jail. Not enough if you think she pushed her, but arguably too much if there was never a case. Maybe it's the right balance.

If AG has form for being threatening/aggressive towards people in public, despite disability, and despite the consequences of this incident… then surely there can be no doubt that there remains a risk to the general public if she remains unsupervised?

some sort of comprehensive care plan needs to be in place at the very least.

That is totally irrelevant. Declaring someone to have lost capacity isn’t tit for tat. It’s very difficult to do what you’re suggesting and remove the liberty of someone disabled. And that’s exactly how it should be. There is clearly a significant level of learning and behavioural disability here and because mental health services in this country are so badly resourced, AG was moved out of over subscribed residential accommodation and left to her own devices. She’s not the first and she won’t be the last. The ‘care in the community’ approach doesn’t work and some people clearly need support and supervision. But that doesn’t justify locking them up and throwing away the key.

For once it would actually have been useful to have a poll on this AIBU. I would have been interested to see the results.

It strikes me as a complex accident, perhaps avoidable if the council had thought through whether it was a safe shared space or not, perhaps avoidable if AG had moved out the way, perhaps avoidable if the poor victim had got off her bike

Do you really think a woman with AG's amount of MH and physical issues would have behaved differently had it been a clearly defined shared cycle path?

No of course she wouldn't, the result would have been the same.

If you study the video, the cyclist was going at little more than walking pace, how would a pedestrian or cyclist get anywhere if they had to stop and wait just in case the person coming towards them is crazed?

I don't think anyone wants her locked up if found not guilty, just supervised in public. If she had been on an outing in a group with a carer, they possibly could have prevented the aggressive behaviour that lead to Celia's death.

It strikes me as a complex accident, perhaps avoidable if the council had thought through whether it was a safe shared space or not, perhaps avoidable if AG had moved out the way, perhaps avoidable if the poor victim had got off her bike

I would have likely been afraid to dismount and walk past a person behaving like in that video.

A comprehensive care plan was in place and the LA ripped it up and moved her from a residential home to an independent assisted living flat with much less supervision. It’s not that she had form for being aggressive as she was in this incident. She was causing public nuisance by shouting abuse at passers by and she was reported to the police on numerous occasions, who alerted the authorities responsible for her, who in turn, did nothing. She’s not alone. When you look at the state of the provision for mental health in this country it becomes more and more apparent that we’re going to have incidences like this until those with MH conditions are properly provided for. And that doesn’t mean locking them up and throwing away the key.

I think we are past the point of providing proper care for MH. Too many people have problems or diagnoses, I don’t think it’s even possible any more

I think that hard cases make bad law.

Luckily, most people with MH problems know right from wrong. Those who are a danger to themselves or others should be the priority.

I agree. But. For whatever reason, the LA clearly didn’t think she met the threshold because she was in a residential home which, although it provided a degree of supervision inside the facility, didn’t prevent residents from going out unsupervised. She was then moved out to live independently in a flat. Clearly that decision was wrong and I agree there should be a degree of supervision in public, but that involves removing someone’s liberty and it’s a serious matter, for good reason. I do think the decisions taken prior to this incident need to be reviewed in light of what’s happened though.

I think we need to prioritise. Those who present a danger to themselves or others should take precedence. At the moment it’s a mess.

I do actually, if it was a decent shared path split in two (albeit this would have to be on a different road so would never have happened) she may have been more likely to stick to 'her' lane and vice versa. But we'll never know. That's part of why it's complicated.

Do we know if she is now suitably housed and supervised?

Just those are that are a danger to the public, whether disabled or not.

Absolutely. Before I married and had children I lived in an inner city housemate right near my workplace and honestly it was insane. I am truly not exaggerating when I say I can remember dozens of people I saw regularly on my street, the corner shop, along the route to my workplace etc, who were frighteningly unstable. It was unnerving and incredibly sad and the police and other services just haven’t the bandwidth for how many there are who are walking the streets complex unbalanced and unstable.. ticking time bombs really. I’m changed by the experience and do keep my children very close as you can’t assume that dog walker/cyclist/any member of the public is safe and fully functioning.

Terrible accident, but always thought the case for manslaughter was weak.

Cyclists need to be more aware of pedestrians on shared paths, and be able to anticipate and properly react to hazards and distractions.

Many current shared paths need to be reexamined in regards to their suitability for being shared paths - enough space for wheelchairs/buggies, enough space for safe passing, clear "pedestrian here, cyclist here" markings etc. Any that can't be brought up to snuff need to be changed to pedestrians only.

I think some cyclists get rightfully scared and upset at the unsafe passes, close calls and SMIDSYs from car drivers, without appreciating that on shared paths (or indeed, actual ped-only pavements...) cyclists are often the ones intimidating pedestrians in the exact same manner.

Apparently marked/lined shared spaces are statistically less safe than the freestyle ones.

The marked ones apparently encourage cyclists to go faster, thinking they'll have unimpeded use and then pedestrians just walk into the lanes without warning/looking.

Having them unmarked means people are in general more careful.

Is the supposed logic behind it anyway

I agree. It is money saving, then blame people with mental health problems when it goes wrong.
I do not think shared cycle paths and pedestrian spaces are safe anyway.

No.