Muslim vote (the group, not people generally)

[Noicant]

I was looking at the list of 18 demands from Muslim Vote to Labour and on that list they had

18. Remove the archaic 'spiritual influence' offence from statute.'

I’m not being funny but they want clergy to be able to direct how people vote. Please tell me Labour are going to just ignore this, I’m not sure that many people want their Imam telling them how to vote either, I know if I were Muslim I’d just ignore him.

I have no particular strong feelings about the Israel stuff, it’s to be expected from the group but that one surprised me a bit.

What happened in Iran and the Lebanon was dreadful.

Extrapolating from those countries to claim Muslims will do the same in the UK, that this is inherent in Islam, that all Muslims will want this and that Labour will implement it is scaremongering by people with an agenda. And all based on a ludicrous demand from a tiny fringe group with 3k FB followers. 🙄

Me too. I an South Asisn descent, born in South London. None of the many Muslim women and girls I grew up with would wear the Niqab. That was reserved for the occasions we went to Kensington and witnessed rich Arabs swanning round. The rest of the time the Asian women were dressed in bright colours, Salwar Kameez, the children in jeans and t shirts like everyone else. It was only 40 or so years ago. 'Progressive' useful idiots are complicit in oppressing people they pretend they want to champion and protect because they are being used by a tiny minority of fundamentalist men to oppress women and other members of the community who do not want to live like this. That is horrific if, in this country, people are going round checking if people are fasting for Ramadan!

The first thing to remember is that this certainly won't be all muslim voters - more likely a noisy minority who (as with other religions) think they can use their minority status to dictate what others should do

Pandering to them wouldn't just upset the mainstream population; it would do the same to countless decent muslims, and if I can work that out I imagine Labour will too

@DramaLlamaBangBang we don't have ID cards here, so am assuming @pistonsaremachines is outside the UK? Wherever it is, it sounds pretty grim.

All that has happened in reality is a tiny lobby group has drawn up a list of demands for Labour. Demands which Labour will ignore

You trust politicians to do the right thing? For Labour to make a decision and stand firm on…anything?

And that tiny lobby group…whether Far Right, Far Left, TRA, Islamic/Christian/Vegan…Eco Warriors. You shouldn’t dismiss tiny lobby groups, they grow and recruit.
Like not fixing that chip in your windscreen. May not be a problem. May explode in your face as you head round the M25 at 70mph.

Yes I was talking about a different country! I think PP was agreeing that even in previously moderate places, more fundamentalist religion is being pushed.

Yes prioritising men over women just because religion is involved is incredibly harmful.

@Dancingontheedge politicians do what benefits them. Where is the political gain in pandering to a tiny minority and thereby alienating swathes of your core vote? Last week made it clear that Labour doesn't need the hardcore Muslim vote to succeed, so this sudden idea that they'll support turning the UK into a Caliphate reeks of more political smear tactics to me. The evidence that they'll do this just isn't there.

However, if you want a party that suits someone with these views, there's always Reform.

I agree. I don't think Labour needs to agree to these demands. They want to bully and intimidate Muslims into doing what they want, and many Muslims will be hoping for Labour to ignore them.Yes, other people will also feel intimidated, but mainly its Muslims, who are the main victims of Islamism and Islamist terrorism. It was Muslim children geing bullied and intimidated by that child at the Michaela School, and Muslim parents being intimidated outside the school, their children's education being disrupted. And Muslim women who suffer when men force them into piety and poverty.

Last election we had Jewish Rabbi/ leaders urging others to not vote for labour because of Corbyn. Muslims are not sheep that follow whatever religious leaders say. We can make up our minds. I don't think UK and America have real democracy. I voted greens last week and come the general election will go green or independent. This two party dictatorship needs ending and if muslims are the catalyst to bring in real democracy then its a positive thing.

Out of interest @Hawa13, where does have real democracy? Is real democracy practised anywhere?

So true.

Papyrophile, European states with PR system are in my opinion more democratic than Uk and US where special interest groups decide on policy.

I agree. There are unpleasant side effeects - such as in the Netherlands, Italy and soon to be Germany - but if people want a far right government, they should have the right to vote for one in the expectation of getting one, however distasteful that is.

Here in the UK we're getting one by stealth. Rwanda, leaving the ECHR, cracking down on the freedom to protest, infiltrating the media (BBC) or trying to gag them by privatisatino (C4) - it's all happening right under our noses. And I haven't even started on the National Conservative movement, flinging antisemitic tropes like 'cultural Marxism' around. Well, I have now.

This soo funny. Bit of self reflection wouldn't go a miss. "Muslims aren't sheep" "but oh look at the Jew telling others in their community how to vote". What do you think happens in Tower Hamlets and other heavily populated Muslim areas?

"This is not democracy in US/Uk" well it might not be perfect but it took centuries of judo Christian blood and sweat to create it; it's not for Muslims to fix it.

It is for all citizens to fix it, @Bicyclethief, including Muslim citizens.

And "centuries of judo Christian blood and sweat"? Did you mean to sound so horrifyingly extremist?

And that tiny lobby group…whether Far Right, Far Left, TRA,
Islamic/Christian/Vegan…Eco Warriors. You shouldn’t dismiss tiny lobby groups, they grow and recruit

So true - but it bears adding that they grow even faster if pandered to

Is staying historic fact extreme? Please explain.

You are right, I should have said every citizen!

@Bicyclethief the phrase sounds a bit 'Blut und Boden' is all. And let's face it, the UK as we have it now was not just built by Judaeo-Christian blood and sweat. There were a lot of pagans of various flavours involved as well, and no doubt some non believers.

Yes, Blut und Boden. Exactly that.

Why thank you!

It's really not an ideology to be proud of...

Well, I don't like religious pressures on voters and politicians. regardless of the religion. But let's not pretend that it doesn't happen with Christian groups- not normally the Church of England leadership, but smaller hardline groups such as the Christian Institute and Christian Concern. Here is one of the Christian Institute's 'question cards' for candidates in the 2019 election; soon to be updated, no doubt:

question-card-2019_england.pdf (christian.org.uk)

And here is dear cuddly Ann Widdecombe, some years ago, when still a Tory, gloating, among other things, over a toxic Christian Right campaign that helped to defeat my MP in my seemingly liberal constituency in 2010.

Ann Widdecombe: A question of conscience | Conservative Home

For the most part, the UK is an increasingly secular country. There will not be the same sort of Christian Right influence on voting here, as there has recently been in the USA, or the same sort of Muslim Right influence on voting here, as there has recently been in Turkey. The main real danger here is perhaps if fundie Christians and fundie Muslims get together andcollaborate on religious-right issues.

There is a differentce between someone saying 'I dont think yo should vote Labour because we think their leader is anti semitic, or at least sympathises with anti semites' and saying 'Do as we say or we will tell Muslims not to vote for you. The latter is a demand to a party to change policy to suit their interests. If Muslims are not sheep ( and I don't think they are either, and most wont listen, although Lutfer Rahman in Tower Hamlets...) why do they want Imams to be able to tell people how to vote?

'Judeo-Christian blood and sweat?' It seems that it's Judeo-Christian when you want to exclude Muslims. Not sure about the Judeo part during those centuries when the Jews were kicked out of England!

For that matter, plenty of people over the centuries have been burned, beheaded, slaughtered in battle, or at best disenfranchised and excluded from jobs for being the wrong kinds of Christian.

And let's not forget the centuries where Britain depended to quite a degree on the 'blood and sweat' of an Empire. which included plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other non-Christians.