Muslim vote (the group, not people generally)

[Noicant]

I was looking at the list of 18 demands from Muslim Vote to Labour and on that list they had

18. Remove the archaic 'spiritual influence' offence from statute.'

I’m not being funny but they want clergy to be able to direct how people vote. Please tell me Labour are going to just ignore this, I’m not sure that many people want their Imam telling them how to vote either, I know if I were Muslim I’d just ignore him.

I have no particular strong feelings about the Israel stuff, it’s to be expected from the group but that one surprised me a bit.

Well not really for example if Labour adopt the all party group’s definition into law then saying for example Islam was an oppressive colonialist and imperialist project in many countries that involved the subjugation of native peoples could land me in hot water. i could have committed a hate crime despite it being true.

Or lets say that my understanding of Aisha’s age leads me to think that she was a child when the marriage was consummated ergo I think Muhammed by todays standards is a paedophile could result in a hate crime if I wrote that or said it out loud.

Sorry I know that’s uncomfortable but to not be able to insult a religion or religious figure is basically introducing blasphemy laws by the back door. But only when it comes to Islam because no other religion would have the same level of protection of criticism.

A lot of posters aren't doing that though, they seem to be implying this vocal, extremist group represent all Muslims

Exactly. And then implying that Labour is somehow in thrall to such vocal, extremist groups.

Lobby groups like this put the fear of god into my MIL. Actually, they make her angry.

She hears men like this and worries that the hand wringers will ‘be kind’.

When you live through a religious revolution you tend to be wary.

If you look at major religions the world over, you'll find that the principles we claim as Christian are much the same in other faiths. They are societal tenets that support the survival of a society. The UK would function perfectly well as a secular state because those much vaunted 'Christian ' values are pragmatic rather than religious.

The reason religious rules don't work is people, not the faith itself.

Yeah I don’t think people understand what these groups at critical mass or with the right levels of influence can do to the institutions of a country. Just look at what trans rights activist have done to women's sex based rights in multiple countries.

Well not really for example if Labour adopt the all party group’s definition into law

You don't understand what an APPG is, do you?

APPGs are basically cross party lobby groups. There are hundreds of them covering all sorts of areas of niche interest. They have no legislative or Parliamentary powers at all.

Suggesting that Labour is going to introduce blasphemy laws to make criticism of Islam a crime is batshit and bordering on paranoia.

Or not seen it first hand. Not had their aunt threatened with arrest for having a lock of hair showing. Licking the spotty tough picked on the wrong auntie and got a blistering mouthful (so he ran off when he realised other women were stopping and squaring up to him - but there are the female ‘allies’ who are just as bad as the men).

Having your daily life scrutinised so that you don’t concentrate on the air pollution, power cuts and the tanking economy.

Now I'm no fan of the Church of England but I don't think this is a useful parallel. Firstly the lords spiritual have no party affiliation and they defo don't tell people how to vote. Secondly their role is usually as a 'moral break' on some of the government's more outre ideas e.g. the Rwanda Bill, which they did a great job in holding up and holding to the light of day. Thirdly, there's a big movement against them being there and I expect they'll be phased out within the next ten years, leaving only the law lords and party affiliates.

Therefore I suggest this is a poor parallel because

1. They don't see to influence votes as Muslim Vote would like imams to do
2. They do not propose legislation and do not hold enough seats to comprehensively block legislation unlike Muslim Vote which is seeking to propose and bring forward legislation in favour of Muslim practice and against atheistic practice
3. They play a moderating role, holding back rather than bringing forward new legislation

*Licking the spotty tough - luckily the spotty youth

argh.

Exactly. That poor family who's daughter died in the canal was escaping these idiots in Iraq, where they threatened to kill them because he was Sunni and his wife was Shia. Fancy risking your life to escape these people only to find them being tolerated here, Imams being invited with open arms into mosques, making demands of governments to allow those Imams to influence votes!

Sunnis really hate Shia. Which is a whole story in itself.

Reminds me of the good of Catholics Vs Protestants back in the 70s Glasgow. But worse.

Muslims account for 6.5% of the population. Not all of them voting age. The rest split between mainly apathy, labour or Tory.
This seems like a lot of mouth for not much backing.

Oh, and btw the co-chair of that APPG is a Tory. But you don't seem to be panicking that the Tories are going to be bringing in blasphemy laws 🤔

I know what an APPG is, it is the Labour party that are apparently considering adopting this definition of Islamaphobia into equality law.

The specific examples I gave means specific criticisms of Islam or Muhammed could result in hate speech convictions. What is that if not blasphemy law.

I’d be pissed off if the Tory’s were thinking about adopting it too but they aren’t going to be the next government are they? And they aren’t the target of this campaign. They made a shitshow of trans lobbying but Labour was worse. So I trust Labour even less to have a backbone when dealing with special interest groups than the tories which is not saying much.

Oh for God's sake. Read the bloody thing again, it is not saying you can't criticise Islam or mention its history.

I give up.

I leave this thread safe in the knowledge that none of the crap you are predicting will ever happen.

The speech one isn’t very clear. Someone below said it included all X do Y and I don’t think answered on stats

As we’ve seen with the Scottish law what is actually illegal needs to be defined at some point, if not in law then by test case

Not that I want any of it, but pp seemed a bit more receptive to that one

As for religion generally my priority is women and children and I think some societies do worse on that count, often influenced heavily by religion

Ah yes you are right, you just aren’t allowed to draw a picture of it without getting a visit from the police.

“Using the symbols and images associated with classic Islamophobia (e.g. Muhammed being a paedophile, claims of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword or subjugating minority groups under their rule)”

So that would be adopted as a definition of Islamaphobia which would be used to define hate crime (which we generally punish through the law). It literally says it right there!

You have deliberately cut off the rest of the paragraph. It says:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic Islamophobia (e.g. Muhammed being a paedophile, claims of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword or subjugating minority groups under their rule) to characterize Muslims as being ‘sex groomers’, inherently violent or incapable of living harmoniously in plural societies.

Modern Islam says you can’t even draw a representation of Mohammed (although much earlier depictions of him - in a religious way - are in existence and that’s quite an interesting topic) therefore ‘insult’ and ‘offence’ may be very much in the eye of the beholder…

You are right. There was a report in one of the Sunday papers last month that Iran is fomenting religious tensions in the UK. I would imagine that some members of the APPG have received inducements to influence them in this matter.

Another one who does not understand what an APPG is.

Yup, IClaudine. I have NO idea what an APPG group is. Do you know how corrupt parliamentarians are? That would require some imagination on your part though ….

Well at least I know what an APPG is and its functions.

You really think Paul Bristow is in the pay of Iran?