Muslim vote (the group, not people generally)

[Noicant]

I was looking at the list of 18 demands from Muslim Vote to Labour and on that list they had

18. Remove the archaic 'spiritual influence' offence from statute.'

I’m not being funny but they want clergy to be able to direct how people vote. Please tell me Labour are going to just ignore this, I’m not sure that many people want their Imam telling them how to vote either, I know if I were Muslim I’d just ignore him.

I have no particular strong feelings about the Israel stuff, it’s to be expected from the group but that one surprised me a bit.

Well, all major faiths are guilty of spreading their creed by oppression. It's how organised religion works and I have no issue with anyone saying it about any faith.

The last bit though, about Muslims being sex groomers, inherently violent and incapable of living in a pluralistic society - yep, that sounds pretty damn bigoted to me and no, people shouldn't be tarring an entire religious community with the same brush. If it's wrong to spread antisemitic tropes (and it is), and if it's wrong to claim Catholics are all child abusers (and it is), then it is also wrong to say these things about Islam.

What is the suggestion on what happens next?

To use one of your examples say a person refers to a case where abuse has occurred, or grooming or stats on any of those for a group of people

Versus a person saying all X do this or Y do that which is incorrect

Is the suggestion that the first is ok? And what happens with the second?

Oh come on, @EasternStandard !

If someone references a case where a group of people have been found guilty of X crime, that is not a problem.

If people say 'all people belonging to the same ethnic group as the people who committed X crime', that is a problem.

Especially since the data on grooming and ethnicity is dated, very poor quality, incomplete and not actually indicative of anything that can safely be used.

It’s a question, I assumed it wouldn’t be a problem but your come on! reaction is odd.

You also didn’t say what would happen for the second?

Actually I’m not sure of your distinction here, mentioning a case is ok but are stats problematic?

If you don't think it would be a problem, why ask what happens next? Hate speech is illegal. Violent crime is illegal.

And you must be aware that people genuinely believe that Muslim men are more likely to commit grooming offences, even though the available data does not support that belief.

So, while it is not illegal to repeat that mistaken belief, it should always be challenged and it should certainly not be perpetuated in the media.

Someone saying 'Muslim men are all groomers' would imo be committing hate speech. I don't see an issue with acknowledging that. It's no different to any other ethnic or religious slur.

I asked what would happen next for the second version, ie all X do Y. That would be hate speech and criminalised?

The case example I think not a problem, the stats I’m surprised at that being shut down, they are just figures and can be disputed if not standing up. I mean someone on a recent thread was quoting a book with culturally aligned stats - can that be published?

Challenging someone is not the same as a crime, so clarity on what actually happens or is illegal is important

This is old but a good watch to see the variety of opinions being cultivated.

Young Muslims discuss the idea of a Caliphate, what it means to them, and whether they’d welcome it here. m.youtube.com/watch?v=kXHg9AY6M2k

Mostly moderate but two men with views that directly contradict our democracy. Most people are indeed peaceful, but there is a motivated minority who want something very different for our country.

See: 2:40, 6:00, 7:28

Interesting that the panel member with the more extreme views (the one who spoke first) is a convert. I wonder if he remained a Muslim?

Why isn't there any Hindu phobia, Sikhphobia or any other phobia? Just Islamophobia.

Today it's hate speach tomorrow it will be blasphemy laws.

The mind boggles. It’s Buddhism that terrifies me…

I am not sure what point you're really trying to make, but I don't think it really matters what the name is for the hatred of people of a certain religion. For example, an anti-Semite doesn't mean "someone against Semites" (although a lot of anti-Semites do like to occasionally pretend that's what it actually means 😅 They enjoy minimising anti-semitism). So it being called Islamophobia is a bit meaningless. It's just the name it was given. Similar to homophobia or xenophobia. Not all words mean what they "should" mean.

Are people not aware that the whole basis of our justice system was formed originally on broad Christian principles and the 10 commandments?
If you remove all of it, then what is truth? Who gets to say what right and wrong is? Where’s the yard arm? Is it a feeling? What if one person feels differently from another about what is right and wrong? Who gets to decide?
You only have to look at the Scottish hate crime bill to see how unworkable it becomes. And the net result of that lovely piece of legislation is to stir up more hatred and division, rather than unite.

"I am not sure what point you're really trying to make, but I don't think it really matters what the name is for the hatred of people of a certain religion. For example, an anti-Semite doesn't mean "someone against Semites" (although a lot of anti-Semites do like to occasionally pretend that's what it actually means 😅 They enjoy minimising anti-semitism). So it being called Islamophobia is a bit meaningless. It's just the name it was given. Similar to homophobia or xenophobia. Not all words mean what they "should"

It does matter whether criticism of a religion is now going to be defined as hatred. It matters because there is an emphasis on Islam. I asked, why do Hindus not shout about Hindu hate, why don't Sikhs or Christians. Why isn't there any words coined for it and profusely used on an every day occurrence? It's because people have genuine concerns about Islam not just in this country but in many societies across the world.

To question Islam will now become a hate crime. Soon blasphemy. We already seen how not questioning the men who groomed those girls ended. All institutions were too scared to call it out because they didn't want to be accused of islaphobia. But let's just play silly games with words and not deal with it.

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of daily talk about the hatred Hindus are at the receiving end of on a daily basis in certain countries. You're just seeing it all from a very Western-centric point of view, which is fair enough. But let's not pretend that all Hindus are perfectly free from hounding and persecution everywhere in the world. I'm sure there will be a word for it in those countries.

It's ok to question specific aspects of a religion. It's not ok to question the religions right to exist in this country or to make blanket statements about the religion. Just be respectful.

I also don't think it should be a hate crime to criticise aspects of a religion. I'm also pretty confident it's not a majority of Muslims in this country who are calling for that though. If it was, then I'd see the problem.

All religions are problematic. Islam just gets more attention because it's a comparatively large minority. That's exactly what happened with Jews in Europe in the 1930s - they were a large minority so became the ultimate scapegoat.

No @Humdingerydoo that is not right. We need to discuss Islam without people saying it is like the Jews in the 1930s which is a ridiculous comparison. People are worried as there are Muslims (obviously not all) that try and impose their view on society with the threat of violence see Salman Rushdie protests and Batley teacher in hiding. Also there are not many Muslim majority countries where other religions have equality. These and other issues should be discussed freely without people being worried about being arrested for "Islamaphobia" which it is feared Labour will introduce as a crime.

These and other issues should be discussed freely without people being worried about being arrested for "Islamaphobia" which it is feared Labour will introduce as a crime

Where is this fear coming from? When has Labour said it will do this? Why would it do this when there are already laws in place to combat racial and religious hatred?

I am disgusted you are comparing the rational concern about the rise of Islamic extremism in this country, with how the Nazis treated Jews.

in this scenario, it is the Islamic extremists that are the right wing fascists.

We have a serious issue here. The mass and unchecked immigration has created enclaves of people living a very different British life to the rest of us. There are more than 85 sharia councils in the UK. Men can divorce their wife verbally.. If a woman wants to divorce his wife that’s a more serious issue.

Rather than push for criticism of Islam to be a hate crime, moderate Muslims should be calling out those who do not wish to integrate, and who live by a different set of values.

This undercover documentary was released last year, and uncovers the attitudes of some of the women in extreme sections of society m.youtube.com/watch?v=bhcSn7BPzdI

32:00 Female preacher - “what the government calls extremism is being a good Muslim. ‘The vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values including democracy.’ That places every single Muslim in the category of extremist. You know why? Because the statement ‘La ilaha illallah’ (There is no God but Allah), that statement that makes you a Muslim. That is a rejection of democracy and the rule of law. Because that statement says la- you reject all other… any ruling.. any legislation, you’re rejecting to obey anything other than Allah. This is a fight against Muslims and Islam, that’s what we need to remember. This is the plan of the kuffar (disbelievers). It’s hard when you hear these things, it’s very difficult not to feel let down…. Allah says in the Quran do not be down, do not be depressed for you are superior. You are the best if you are believers. Allah will make you superior to these enemies, if you are believers…”

34:32 On the anti extremism planning. “they thought it was a plan to deradicalise people, God they got it so wrong. Because if anything more and more people are becoming what they call radicalised. If extremism is to have a voice or actions against British values and democracy they couldn’t have done anything worse… because this is really changing the way Muslims feel in this country.”

Agree, IClaudine. It is frightening what nonsense people will preoccupy themselves with. It is reminiscent of the panic about 15 minute cities or the covid vaccination, but worse in that it causes people to focus on an identifiable group of people who are already vulnerable because of racism.

There are extremists and bigots in every religion (and in non-religious groups). But a stronger current in all major religions, including Islam, is a compassionate universalism that recognises all people as equally deserving of love.

For families who moved to the U.K. to escape this nonsense and chose to live in the U.K. because they liked the country, the traditions, the education system, culture, art and literature, theatre, shops, architecture, odd customs… and the freedoms it’s a bloody slap in the face.

Want to live like this? No that’s why we don’t live in Iran ffs…

’compassionate universalism that recognises all people as equally deserving of love.’

Sorry but with family in Iran I’m not seeing this in religion.

’compassionate universalism that recognises all people as equally deserving of love.’

Sorry but with family in Iran I’m not seeing this in religion.

’compassionate universalism that recognises all people as equally deserving of love.’

Sorry but with family in Iran I’m not seeing this in religion.

Well yes as I said some of it is fine, trying to suggest stating facts about how religion spreads is Islamaphobic is the point I was objecting to. Thats just history.

No people shouldn’t be labelled as groomers for being Muslim.

But nothing is actually happening to change any of that. It is all a weird fantasy in some poster's heads.

All that has happened in reality is a tiny lobby group has drawn up a list of demands for Labour. Demands which Labour will ignore.

Oh come on, I never said or implied Muslims are being treated the way Jews were in the 1930s. You're seeing a comment there that I didn't make. I'm saying the fear of another religion is the same. That fear is being displayed in very different ways though ie there aren't different laws for Muslims than for others. There aren't places Muslims aren't allowed to go. Jobs Muslims aren't allowed to have etc etc. Nonetheless, the fear of a different religion is still the same.

I am Jewish and pro-Israel. The granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor who was the sole one from her family to survive. I wasn't trying to minimise the Holocaust! I was saying the fear of another religion is dangerous, and that was an example of another time a religion was irrationally feared.

I don't have a problem with criticising extremists of any religion. A lot of posters aren't doing that though, they seem to be implying this vocal, extremist group represent all Muslims. That's what I take issue with. People often treat all Muslims as though they're extremists. That's where the problems lie in my opinion.