DD and her uncle...AIBU to feel uncomfortable?

[maay]

My daughter is 12. In January her uncle started giving her guitar lessons as she really wanted to learn. He has been playing for years and sometimes teaches lessons, so when he offered to teach her for free, it was too good to turn down. The lessons are at our house. She's really been enjoying it. I still offer him money, but it's always a firm no.

He took her to see a band that they both like in March. His wife was also there. DD came back with loads of merch. I was thankful but told him he didn't need to do all of that! I felt like it was really cool they were bonding so well though. DH loved to see it as well.

He has bought her quite a few things now other than that merch. Like a necklace, posters, figurines, he even offered to buy her expensive trainers when she asked me for them in front of him. I said no to that one, because me and DH already decided she didn't need them. (girl has a lot.)

DH and I check her phone regularly. They text each other probably once or twice a week. It's brief and they just send each other memes and links to music they like. I haven't seen an actual conversation with them, so think I'm happy with that.

Yesterday he was at our house. We were all in the same room talking. DD went and sat on his lap and it made me feel uncomfortable. Only because she never sits on an adults lap anymore? I wasn't going to make a scene or anything, so I just made an excuse and asked her to come help me with something in a different room. When she went back into the room, she didn't sit on his lap again.

The same day, he dropped into conversation about how "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful" he looked at DD and she giggled. DD is half Asian. I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with it all. But I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable? I don't want to break an innocent bond, but I feel like I missed some red flags and I'm now seeing them? DH says he just loves his niece and he doesn't think we have to worry.

Even when I have been with friend's and their young child has plunked themselves on my lap for the first time I am always slightly surprised, and it would show.
Sorry OP but your DD has sat on your Uncle's lap before, enough times for it to be "normal".

Yes, I agree with all of this.

I remember watching a grooming video on Youtube (where vigilantes catch men who've arranged to meet an underage girl). This guy in his 40s turned up to meet a 14-year-old, and when confronted said "but I wasn't going to do anything; we're just friends." Someone then asked him "and what exactly were you planning to talk about with this 14-year-old girl? Justin Bieber? Make-up? Formula One?" It would be odd enough if 32-year-old man was friends with a 17-year-old boy. But a 12-year-old girl! No, no, no. He's either seriously weird or he has an ulterior motive.

Also, keep this in mind: he might be in furious denial about what he's up to. He might have convinced himself that they're just pals. Men do that all the time. Then when they're caught they tell everyone that 'she seduced me'. Families do this as well. When a husband or son is caught grooming an underage girl, or abusing the babysitter, or viewing indecent images of children, the family rally round. They come out fighting, claiming that he was depressed, that she seduced him, that someone hacked his computer, and so on.

It sounds like he's grooming her infront of you, to show he's "innocent and harmless" and make you trust him. I would be sitting DD down and explaining she's not in any trouble, but you fear he's grooming her and has he asked her to sit on his lap at his home, or called her beautiful before that occasion, etc. Maybe take her out for lunch and so she feels comfortable and safe with you only, wouldn't recommend taking her dad too, (too much pressure) and ask her gently.

After this regardless of her answer I'd nip it in the bud. Doesn't sound like anything positive is going to come out of this. I've been telling my DD since she was around 7 not to sit on men's laps, including men in the family and wouldn't let her hang around a man alone like this either.

I suppose only you really know her so know if it’s out of character. My daughter hangs off her Dad and me all the time but not Grandparents or anyone else despite being close to them so it would definitely raise alarm bells with me. Only YOU really know if this is off. Listen to your gut. Talk to her about grooming maybe and don’t leave her on her own with him.

OP,

I appreciate that you would rather rationalise this away, but unfortunately you have a predator as a step brother..just how far this has gone is a big worry if your daughter sees nothing wrong in sitting on his lap like its nowhere near the first time for them.

Your choices appear to be protect your daughter NOW...in fact there aren't any choices, no matter how much of a row it causes within the family.

Tread carefully though, or you might drive them into a secret ' no-one understands about us ' relationship.

Or put a camera in the middle room.

I don’t know! I posted the same thing just after you before I saw this.

It’s not usual to fancy your uncles- or to fancy your family in general, unless there are some weird dynamics going on.

Your update is more redflags.

You are right to be suspicious and your DH is under reacting massively.

Do not lwt him or anyone else doubt yourself.
Do not "be nice"

Even if she does "fancy him" he is the adult. if this was my DH he would be incredibly uncomfortable with the lap thing if it was his niece because its wildly inappropriate. he would probably have moved her to a seat or made an excuse to stand.

I really think he is grooming in plain sight and would have no problem making this a bigger issue (ie i wouldn't be going along with everyone inc myself and dd attending family parties with your step brother) and wont care if my DM was "upset" because he didnt fo anything / my mind is in the gutter or whatever...

Yes it is weird. Children are absolutely wired to feel disgust around sexualised behaviour with family members. That disgust is often eroded by the groomers and well meaning but naïve adults who enable abusers. That disgust becomes part of the internalised shame that destroys abuse victims emotionally.

OP they now teach in safeguarding training that most people's first reaction when something happens is to minimise or excuse it. We literally do not want to believe what we witness.
I surprised myself by reacting like this too. A good male friend was entrapped through paedophile hunters and filmed. He had been talking online to what he thought was a young teenage girl but was one of these men who trap paedophiles - not a tactic I agree with by the way.
I was told this by another friend and my first reaction was that he might have been filmed and accused but he would not have done anything. Then I watched the video and saw him admitting to what he was doing but saying he just wanted to be friends and the inappropriate messages were because she had a crush on him. He was in his early thirties, the pretend "girl" was I think 13. And then I knew I had been wrong and he was guilty.

I say this because I want you to know it is normal to minimise and under react. But you need to push through that and react appropriately. As parents we have to safeguard our children, including from family and friends we love. We would not allow a family member to transport our child in a car without a car seat. In the same way we can not allow grooming of our child.

It's tricky to judge. I had a fun relationship with my Mum's brother all his life. He used to take me for days out when we were staying with my grandparents. He and his wife couldn't have children so both loved spending time with me. Sometimes just me and him if his wife was at work. Sometimes me and her.

I did sit on his lap at age 12. It was a running joke between us and I sat on his lap at age 40 and older. I can't remember how it started but at our first meeting after a while he used to screech to get me away from him as I forced myself onto his lap.

It could be as innocent as it was for us but you are right to be cautious.

Ehhh?? It most certainly is weird to fancy family members/uncles

Apologies! I read that as "unusual" sorry!

I was groomed by my uncle and I wish my Mum had noticed the red flags and helped me.
Id trust your instincts. It was the sitting on his lap that would worry me the most.

Grooming happens in plain sight.always trust your instincts and also openly say out loud to both of them you're far too big to be sitting on laps

Could you put a camera in the room to see what is being said and done behind closed doors?

I think you need to tread very carefully with DD, she will likely not believe anything negative you tell her, if he has been grooming her all along, he may have even warned her that you want to stop her seeing him etc, and twisted her mind a little.

It's him you need to warn off, adult to adult, in no uncertain terms, if you don't want to outright accuse him of abuse you can say that whether he means to or not he is displaying grooming behaviour (random gift giving, paying compliments about her looks, and letting her sit on his knee for a start) and say you don't want her to think that is acceptable behaviour from men when she is just a child. That way he knows that you know without you accusing him of anything, and any normal person would be mortified and back straight off.

Minimise the time they are spending together and sit in on these guitar lessons with a cup of tea say oh I'm interested in how to learn it

YANBU AT ALL
These are all warning signs of being groomed, especially the sitting on the lap and excessive gift buying. And the creepy Asian comment??

Please talk to your daughter.

No need to kick yourself. You can still say something!

The fact you've posted on here shoes it's not sitting right with you

Shows

Agree - sitting on his lap at 12 isn't normal.

Buying over the top gifts sounds like grooming to me 🤷🏻‍♀️

PLEASE TRUST YOUR GUT.

He is grooming the lot of you, buying her a necklace and being helpful to you.

Put a small cam in that room with audio.

I normally give the benefit of the doubt and am far too trusting by nature but even I am WTF at the sitting on the lap. My nearly 11 year old is very cuddly and affectionate and she wouldn’t sit on an uncle’s lap under any circumstances. For a child who is older and not very affectionate generally to do this is very weird. I hear what someone else said about it being her choice to do that. But he is obviously giving her signals that this is OK behaviour. It absolutely isn’t. Top that off with the weird comment about her race being the most beautiful. I mean he must know that’s not appropriate surely. If my brother said that to my daughter I’d find it very fucking odd. Add in weekly messaging and buying gifts….. she is 12!!! He may not be intending to groom her but his boundaries are way off and that alone would make me very uncomfortable. I would find a way to wind down this relationship without pushing them closer together or causing a huge family rift. But she also needs to have better self preservation for the future. This man may well be trustworthy, even if his actions are a bit weird, but who’s to say the next man will be? Teach your daughter to keep her guard up where older men who take an interest are concerned.

Your additional update has confirmed it; he's definitely grooming her and you need to do something. So sorry and hopefully you can get this stopped quickly.