DD and her uncle...AIBU to feel uncomfortable?

[maay]

My daughter is 12. In January her uncle started giving her guitar lessons as she really wanted to learn. He has been playing for years and sometimes teaches lessons, so when he offered to teach her for free, it was too good to turn down. The lessons are at our house. She's really been enjoying it. I still offer him money, but it's always a firm no.

He took her to see a band that they both like in March. His wife was also there. DD came back with loads of merch. I was thankful but told him he didn't need to do all of that! I felt like it was really cool they were bonding so well though. DH loved to see it as well.

He has bought her quite a few things now other than that merch. Like a necklace, posters, figurines, he even offered to buy her expensive trainers when she asked me for them in front of him. I said no to that one, because me and DH already decided she didn't need them. (girl has a lot.)

DH and I check her phone regularly. They text each other probably once or twice a week. It's brief and they just send each other memes and links to music they like. I haven't seen an actual conversation with them, so think I'm happy with that.

Yesterday he was at our house. We were all in the same room talking. DD went and sat on his lap and it made me feel uncomfortable. Only because she never sits on an adults lap anymore? I wasn't going to make a scene or anything, so I just made an excuse and asked her to come help me with something in a different room. When she went back into the room, she didn't sit on his lap again.

The same day, he dropped into conversation about how "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful" he looked at DD and she giggled. DD is half Asian. I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with it all. But I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable? I don't want to break an innocent bond, but I feel like I missed some red flags and I'm now seeing them? DH says he just loves his niece and he doesn't think we have to worry.

I often think mumsnet gets hysterical over nothing but this isn't one of those times.

It is not normal for a 32 year old man to behave this way. It is not normal for a 32 year old man to want a 12 year old girl to sit on his lap.

And the idea that they're good friends - what 32 year old man wants to be friends with a 12 year old girl?

A lot of men that age don't even like their own kids, let alone other people's.

And the guitar lessons are giving me Cruel Intentions cello lesson vibes.

Cut all ties immediately.

this post has made things seem a lot worse. He's grooming the whole family!

OP, your most recent update makes it worse.

White male into anime making comments about half Asian girls being beautiful sounds like he is fetishising your 12 year old daughter.

I think you need to be very direct with him. Tell him you find the “bond” he is developing with her inappropriate. Tell him no more guitar lessons and no more contacting her phone. Tell him you found it disturbing he let her sit on his lap and his comments about beautiful races disgusting.

It doesn’t matter if he is offended. The way he has behaved is wrong. You know that, we all know that.

You should have told her to get off his knee and that’s she’s too big to be sitting on knees . Then you could have judged everyone’s reactions. If she doesn’t sit on parents knees then you need to speak to her and say it’s not appropriate at that age as she goes from
being a child to a teen boundaries change.

I recently watched a programme about Danielle Jones - your post made me think of it again

I agree that post from OP paints things worse.

The reality: Uncle is friendly and buys Xmas and birthday presents but does not see a lot of OPs family. But them DD turns 12.

• Uncle offers free guitar lessons. He gets to give these guitar lessons in a room where it is just him and DD
• Uncle starts buying lots of presents for DD that are accepted.
• Uncle starts spending much more time at the family home, offering to do things to help out so he can spend time there.
• Uncle has 12 year old DDs phone number and can privately message her.
• Uncle is allowed to take DD to a concert with his wife there, and showers her with presents.
• Uncle is sitting in living room with parents when 12 year old DD comes and sits on her lap. Her parents say nothing about this, but mum does say to DD come and help me with something.
• Uncle says in front of parents that "Asian and half Asian girls are the most beautiful" he looked at DD and she giggled.

Honestly this is grooming 101. This is exactly how grooming happens. You need to react strongly to this OP. Your DD is old enough to sneak off and meet the uncle secretly. You need to warn off Uncle so that he will be too worried to come near DD.

And groomers rely on naive parents such as the ones on here saying she just has a crush, or he is just trying to be cool Uncle.

" he even offered to buy her expensive trainers when she asked me for them in front of him. I said no to that one, because me and DH already decided she didn't need them. "

He is really crossing a line there - showing off in front of your daughter. It just seem wrong to openly offer to pay for something for a child when their parent has said no.

If he was really a nice guy he would have respectfully asked you away from your daughter's ears.

If a child came and sat on my lap for the first time, I would be really shocked and ask them to sit elsewhere, especially if they weren't biologically related. Even if I had to be 'polite', I would at least shift in my seat.

I doubt this is the first time she's sat on his lap.

What was his reaction when she sat on his lap? I know my husband would have leapt of the chair or visibly being uncomfortable and stood up. But if my daughter did this in front of me my first reaction would be 'what are you doing' I would have verbally asked both of them and told them it was weird, but then I am up front and say things as they are happening, rather than go away and think about it from all angles

He's 32 and I'm 33. Our parents got together when we were 12 and 13. I lived with him ages 15-20. He was nice and normal, never did anything weird with me or anyone that I know of.

I understand about the Anime thing. Adult males into Anime never sits quite right with me. But with him I used to put it down to a "geeky side." DH also finds it weird adults are into it, but he has a very trusting personality and is less likely to see red flags, so he also puts it down as geeky and harmless. I still think it can be, but it's another factor to consider in this situation.

Honestly this is the second post I've read today on mumsnet where women are standing by like gittery wallflowers while their daughters are in strange/uncomfortable/unusual positions, with males in their family. Bloody stand up and say something there and then, speak your mind, show your daughters when something is weird or inappropriate! And stop letting men be alone with your daughters if your gut instincts are telling you otherwise.

The more you post, the more alarm bells are ringing. You cannot leave your DD alone with him.

I worry for all the people excusing it as a crush or a cool uncle, there are major red flags here and its worrying that there is anyone these days, with the knowledge available, that wouldnt at the very least put some safeguarding in place.

Many red flags. Trust your gut instinct

Just to add, I know it is tempting to minimise this and see it as nothing really to be worried about. The fact you said nothing at the time about your DD sitting on his lap suggests you avoid confrontation.
But your DD needs you to strong and put a stop to this. I agree with another poster that your DD may have sat on his lap in front of you because he has encouraged her to do this when they are alone - but she feels a bit uncomfortable, so was checking out whether you and your DH thought this was fine.
Children often can not find the words to tell us what they are feeling or thinking. She might have thought that if she said to you she was uncomfortable about sitting on his lap when they were alone, you would ask why, and she would not be able to explain why.
We can not rely on children telling us when they feel uncomfortable about something with words. They do often tell us through their actions.

He was comfortable and carried on talking as normal. He had his hands to his sides, so that's something I guess. I'm kicking myself for not saying anything.

Absolutely This.

I'm an ex copper and this is a massive list of safeguarding red flags. Stop it, now

@maay the fact he was comfortable with her sitting on his lap is a big red flag. It means she has sat on his lap before.
His hands by his side means nothing. The sitting on the lap thing is about a man's cock "accidentally" being in contact with a child's bum. There is no need for hands.
And the more you post the worse it gets. He is grooming her and you.

My brother is kind and generous with my dds. One is slightly younger than the OP's, one just turned 7. The 7 year old is still very much into laps and hugs and climbing on people she knows, if dd1 sat on brother's lap I would find it very odd - even more so if she was a year or so older. Brother is the sort of person who would not know how to react and be uncomfortable about this and would make an excuse to stand or hope that someone else asked her to move. I would be concerned if he didn't seem at all bothered though as it would be out of character behaviour for dd.

The comments about attractiveness made in front of the OPs dd are very inappropriate. I would do what many have suggested and be limiting contact and possibly contacting nspcc etc for advice on how to ask dd questions about his behaviour around her. And definitely make it clear to him that his comments are not appropriate so he knows you have noticed his behaviour.

The lap sitting. Most men would be extremely uncomfortable at this.

You need to find ways of making it clear to your step-brother that he will not get away with grooming your niece, if indeed that is what he is doing (and as others have said, sadly statistically it's not that unlikely).

• Guitar lessons happen in a room where you are present, or an open room like the living room
• No more going to gigs etc. with him or taking her anywhere without you.
• Keep monitoring her phone and find a way of signalling to him that you do this regularly.
• Have a conversation with your daughter about it not being appropriate for her to sit on adults' laps anymore.

Be firm, be present. If he is a predator, then he will get the message that this is not a safe environment for him to operate within.

Always trust your gut! Have a chat with DD about potential dangers and maybe him if you can word it well. He sounds perfect for a teenage crush but hopefully he would know how to address it. It's good that he is reaching out to her.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the beautiful girl comment - she may have expressed concern about her looks, her ethnicity or anything along those lines and he's trying to build her confidence. My DD is also 12 and it's a right age for insecurity and bullying. DD has forgotten everything positive I've ever said to her and seems to be of the impression she is a gremlin that shouldn't be seen without makeup. It breaks my heart and he could just be helping.

Sitting on the knee is a concern though his reaction isn't.

"Adult males into Anime never sits quite right with me."

This is a whole genre and an adult male enjoying watching them is not an issue. My adult DH watches some. He and DD bond over them and some of them are memory lane for when he was a kid - the same as I watch Disney.

"I wasn't going to make a scene or anything, so I just made an excuse and asked her to come help me with something in a different room. When she went back into the room, she didn't sit on his lap again."

You mentioned missing red lines but as an initial reaction to an unexpected situation this was actually pretty quick thinking and she may have got the message that mum was not happy. Hopefully, he did too.

I am amazed at those suggesting continuing guitar lessons in a room with you or DH. How much more obvious does your Uncle have to get?
Your DD is 12. The further this goes the harder it is to stop. Teenagers sneak away from parents to meet up with their adult abusers all the time.
My worry would be you would get to a situation where DD thinks the Uncle is her boyfriend and they are in love. Then it will be very difficult to stop even with police involvement as they will both lie.
You need to stop it now while it is easier to stop. Although it might feel hard to stop at the moment because it means confronting your Uncle, practically it is easier to stop now.

and can be dealt with quickly in a non confrontational fashion with a gentle push and a jokey "get off you lump"