Brother has swindled DM out of over £100k- desperate advice please

[Unicornfairysoap]

Sorry I’m posting in aibu for traffic.

this is long, you may remember such threads as brother Pretended to dying DF to be in the navy to get money, pretend to be in mi6, threatened me with a multi billion £ law suit for saying he doesn’t have a PhD (he literally doesn’t, so it’s a stupid lie)

well DF died a few years ago and it’s been just dm, she lives 2/3 hrs away from my, brother lives closer. She works part time (20hrs a week) and gets my dads old pension and hers, which I’ve totalled as around £3.5k per month (no mortgage just bills). She’s been frequently crying to me she’s not got any money, I thought she was having me on a bit, but I had suspicions brother had claws in. Well she was visiting yesterday and broke down from not being able to pay her bills, she just kept repeating she’s not earning enough now, which she clearly is. The bills were only a few hundred too and she’s not the type to ask for money. I got quite concerned, and I noticed constant phone calls and texts coming in from brother. Now he’s the type that doesn’t contact unless he needs or wants something.

she went to the loo, and I snooped. I know it’s a total break of trust but I was genuinely concerned. I saw a list she’d wrote to him when he was telling her she was dead to him because she couldn’t give him £4k at the drop of a hat. The list went from 2019-2022 (so not even the last 18 months) and it detailed how she’d given him £120k over that time. He’s been going on luxurious holidays in that time. In a legal dispute with his ex. But he’s taking her to the cleaners and im genuinely worried. I looks like pure coercive control and an abusive relationship.

thing is i can’t tell her I looked and saw what I saw. She won’t take kindly to me calling social services or the police to talk with her, it will likely push her further to him.

shes 73 and he’s taken probably £150k at least

God this is so awful. I hate your brother.
Do you have any relationship with him at all?
Can you send an anonymous letter to him, and then deny all knowledge if he asks. Saying you are aware of financial abuse and XXX missing from your mums accounts and the police involvement is the next step. Sorry that may be shit advice but god what a situation. What a shit bag. I’d want him to have a pasting as well.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/health-wellbeing/relationships-family/protection-from-abuse/financial-abuse/

If she is making transfers via telephone banking you could raise concerns with her bank that she is being financially abused. Frame it in terms of your mum is elderly and she has asked you for help as she is struggling to afford her bills and you have found she is making regular large transfers from her account with Bank X that make no sense.

They are trained to look out financial abuse and fraud - one sign of which may be frequent large transfers of money for no real reason. It is a bit sneaky but it also could get their money laundering senses tingling and they have very strong obligations to prevent that (which is why you often get asked the purpose of large cash transfers or withdrawals.)

However as people have said if she has mental capacity and is willingly giving the money to him that could be hard to stop it unless she wants to.

What about saying 'mum I know you are sending money to my brother. But if you are going to deny it and don't want my help to stop it then I do not want to hear another word about you being broke as the solution is in your hands.'

You don't have to say how you know, just say that you do.

She can't have it both ways.

No we have no relationship because as you’ve cleaned from the thread he’s a really nasty piece of work

I would do this in a gentle calm manner. He has form for this so you could say you guessed it was him, not that you looked at her phone.

I am sorry but she cannot keep giving him money whilst expecting you to pick up the pieces and not be able to help her.

Either she accepts your help to sort it out or she has to stop bringing it to you. What she is currently doing isnt working anyway and it will likely get worse and worse even if you do absolutely nothing so its not as if by not reporting it, it will work itself out and if this carries on she may even end up losing her home.

My sister got through about 70k of our Mothers money, without hijacking thread as it’s complex I did consult a solicitor and he said my Mother had capacity, he had written her will. She was not like your brother though just a bit sort of weepy poor me though it was manipulative. I think @Bankholidayhelp has the best solution for something immediate.

@Unicornfairysoap I remember your previous threads - sounds like things are just getting worse. It's just awful

Given that you are basically up against a brick wall with this, I would take the nuclear option - Tell her you have seen the messages, you know that he is an abuser, and it is all his fault. He will never change and nothing will ever be enough.

I can't imagine the stress and worry you are going through, but unfortunately I don't think there is anything you can do if she won't admit it and won't change her behaviour (& he won't change either).

Personally I would offer to mum to go and see a solicitor with her- you could just explain it as- “talking things through” and prime the solicitor in advance. Ideally also see if your mum is amenable to handing over control of her finances for a while to you or the solicitor- you can describe it as just helping her out for a few weeks until all the bills are paid. Older people will often take advice from a “professional” which they won’t from a family member.

Also spend some more time with her- maybe a week- then it will be more difficult for her to disguise what’s going on. Take the time to watch every programme going about people being swindled etc and discuss with her how it’s nothing to be ashamed of etc and see if that helps her open up. Even make up a story about someone you knew through work giving all their money away to a family member and ending up destitute.

If this doesn’t work I would definitely be reporting to her bank, social services and the police too. A call/ visit to either of them might be sufficient to stop it. Irrespective of her wishes it’s the right thing to do.

it's quite possible that she will be relieved if an impartial authority investigates. she may well think you have instigated this but equally it could be anyone who has reported it - his bitter ex, a friend , the cleaner. they wont disclose the identity

Sorry you are going through this op.

Agree with others that if mum refuses any help there isnt really any thing you can do. There may be a couple of options however:

A report to adult safeguarding team in your mums area that you think she is being financially abused. ( have actually done this due to safeguarding concerns at my old job, and adult services were all over it).

Report same to police and ask them to do a welfare check.

As per pp, there is a real concern that if your mum has care needs in the future, you really need it on record that there has been no intentional deprivation of assets.

The police or bank wont do anything if she lies and says it's for her son and she wants to do it. Its not illegal to give your children money and if she has capacity and wont be honest about it then they cant take it forward because as far as they are concerned, no crime has been committed so until she is at the point of admitting its causing her financial problems, I dont see what this will achieve except everyone getting angry at you.

I would have a sit down honest, kind conversation with her and tell you know what he's doing and you are here for her at any point she wants this to stop and you will help her stop it- all she has to do is give you the word. However until that point, there is nothing you can do to help her and so you cannot hear about it any more. It sounds harsh but you have literally no other choice here to help her until she is willing to admit her distress about it.

I had this with my vile brother, only discovered it when my mums account had been hacked. She showed me her statements, she had a huge payment to BT but only had a land line. My brother had set online account up in her name and she was paying for sky, Netflix, broadband etc! I called BT and they took my word for it and cancelled it all. You can imagine what I was called. Don’t care as he’s just ann oxygen stealer but they have a very emeshed relationship. He’s had thousands over the years. It’s definitely an abusive relationship but she doesn’t see it and just accepts that’s how he is

You don’t have to admit seeing the messages.
I’d just say-mum, I know that the reason you’re broke is because you have given hundreds of thousands of pounds to my not so DB. If you want my help to get out of the situation, I am happy to help but if you won’t let me help you out of this abusive situation then there is no point talking to me about it. Shall we go and see a solicitor to protect you?

In that case, she is telling you for a reason, and If this was me I would outright tell her that I know about the payments, it’s the only way without involving the authorities (yet) where she is going to stay in control of what happens from now on and the only way you can possibly help her.

you could say that your brother let something slip, or just go with the ‘it doesn’t matter how I know, but I do know’ and see where she goes from there, don’t justify your behaviour or get drawn in to a discussion about it, that’s not what’s important.

If she continues to deny it there isn’t much you can do, but if she continues to complain you can at least work on her getting help by saying you know where the moneys going so how does she want you to help her? You can’t help her if she won’t let you.

one option is to set up a joint account between you and her for the funds she doesn’t want to ‘lose’, so she can tell your brother that she has no money to give him from her regular account.. which will be true. You’ll be able to see any activity happening with it and if something happened to your mum those funds should be outside her estate and come straight to you under survivorship rules.

I would also be inclined if nothing changes to report your brother for coercive control and financial abuse.. you may find a police visit may be enough to frighten him off continuing?

Without giving anything away that you've had a snoop(and believe me I'd do the same as you in this situation so I don't blame you),tell her you'll be making an appointment with her to go to the bank to see where this money is going. It might scare her into telling you everything.

I'm foreseeing something similar happening in the future with my mum and brother as he has firm and she's going to be moving on the same road as him so I'm following this 💐

You need to have a proper chat with your mum. Literally spell it out on paper. Be blunt!

Show her the money coming in, show her the cost of her monthly bills, then make it clear she should have £XXXX left over each month to put into savings.

Tell her that she is GIVING the money to her son by choice so it's entirely her own fault she hasn't got enough left. So either she stops giving him money, or she will continue to run out.

Is there some way you could also be named on her bank account so any transfers other than bills also have to be approved by you?

It’s financial abuse, if there’s criminality it can carry a sentence. SS will inform the police- I’ve sat in on strategy meetings.

Does she have capacity? Has she willingly gifted this money?

Deprivation of capital is very hard to prove. We’ve never successfully managed to prove that the gifting of money was to deprive the person of paying care home fees. Especially if they didn’t need care at the time and it wasn’t foreseeable. You are allowed to spend your own money. If she’s having some issues now, has carers and a care home is the next step then that be an issue.

I work for a bank. Absolutely call them, they take vulnerable customers very seriously. I would encourage your mum to give you POA over her account. Let her know it's so you can help her with her bills. The bank will help you with this

It’s financial abuse, if there’s criminality it can carry a sentence. SS will inform the police- I’ve sat in on strategy meetings

Curious- how can they prove financial abuse if the person has capacity and lies and says they want him to have it though? Loads of people help their kids financially and it isnt abusive, and if she is scared of him going to prison thats even more reason why she might lie to protect him. I suppose what I'm asking is- doesnt the person being financially abused have to admit it's causing them financial difficulty?

‘Mum, you know why you don’t have enough money. It’s because you’ve given it away to your son. I know he asks you for money you can’t afford to give away. I love you, hate seeing you upset like this and want to help you if you will let me.’ If that doesn’t work, I’d ho to the police re financial abuse.

I think the best bet is, if she DOES want help, get her to set up another bank account for her income that she doesnt tell brother about.

I think she’s telling you for a reason too. She’s crying out for help, but as quietly as she can

These are all really good ideas.

ive asked her again this morning over coffee and she broke down and said she’s been giving him money. She’s in denial about how much. I’ve set her a challenge (which I know she’s already done) to go through her bank statements for the last 5 years and all the texts from him and see how much money she’s given. I said to her, im sure it’s over £100k (she admitted to £40k for the house it was actually £55k) so I said if you gave £40k as a lump sum, I bet you’ll be shocked with how the rest adds up.

I explained to her my concerns and how this is abusive and about care etc. She’s sobbing in the kitchen now. I hope Ive gotten through to her, but who can say? I’m still really worried moving forward. She said she last gave him £4k in one month because he ‘lost his job’ he then booked a holiday for him and his new girl friend to America (she seems as vile as he does)

Tell her there must be some scam going on with her bank account if the money isn't there to pay the bills as she has plenty coming in, suggest getting the bank to investigate where the funds are going and contacting the police or action fraud as someone must be illegally using her account. She may crack and tell you the truth, or follow through with the bank if she really seems confused where the money is going.