Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

The reason one person will gain and another lose on the same amount of calories is because one is expending more calories than the other.

Atypical anorexia still requires significant weight loss to be diagnosed so it is quite a good example supporting the thesis that not eating enough makes people lose weight.

Do the skinny buggers have some sort of resistance to the brain washing?

I can't think of another addictive substance that so many non addicts could hammer to their hearts content without becoming, you know, seriously and negatively addicted

@OneTC You say that, but actually, people vary massively in their responses to addictive substances. I'm coming at this from the perspective of an underweight person struggling to keep their weight up, who has no taste for junk food whatsoever. However, once I tore a ligament in my shoulder and got prescribed some codeine, which is a weak opiate. I'll tell you what, if I had easy and permanent access to opiates, I'd be an addict so fast. I knew I had to get off them, because they definitely, 100%, pinged something in my brain that said: 'Oh my God, do that again'. Before I knew it, I was clock-watching for those little tablets, and kidding myself that I need the codeine when I could have gotten by with an ibuprofen. I don't intend to ever take them again unless I absolutely have to. Meanwhile my friend has had opiates after surgery and felt nothing but nauseated by them. It doesn't surpise me at all that some people are highly rewarded by their brains for eating food, while others just eat to live. You can even see it in animals. I have one cat who has been a skinny minnie her whole life, never cleans her plate, picky eater, only started to fill out a little bit now she's getting on for 14 and doesn't jump around so much. The other is driven by food, never leaves a crumb, starts yelling and weaving around my legs a good hour before feeding time, and remains stubbornly chubby despite being on the lower-fat food for chonkers. You can't say the skinny one just has more willpower!

I’ve always lost weight on a calorie deficit and I do think for the majority they aren’t counting correctly but not 100% of people. People think women can have 2000 a day whereas many shorter women can’t, it needs to be tailored to how much you burn, so age, height, activity level all relevant

Yes not eating will make you lose weight. But it’s just not a sustainable or “liveable” solution - unless the message is that forcing people into starvation and developing eating disorders (with the accompanying mental and physical distress) is worth it because weight loss is paramount above all else??

Most people will still gain the weight back when they eat normal food again, for biological and hormonal reasons that have been researched. So what then? Is the plan just to never eat again? That people should starve themselves until they’re unwell to the point of hospitalisation in pursuit of thinness. We forget, Humans need food to live.
Should we continue to tell people no your body is wrong, don’t listen to its cravings, its signals of hunger. You’re supposed to be in pain, feel weak, have physical problems, don’t trust your body, hate it, fear it. Do we think that will promote health, longevity, happiness?? That’s a pretty dire outlook.

And then people who haven’t lost weight or have and then gained it back have essentially just failed at perfecting their eating disorder? Grim.

When you say “always” do you mean you’ve done it more than once, or you’re always on a diet?

It is simply the case

Its not easily the case

People are getting those two things muddled up

I don’t know a single person who eats normal food and normal portion sizes that struggles with weight gain. But of course that’s just anecdotal evidence, so don’t take my word for it, have a look at research on obesity in countries like Japan.
So I don’t understand what you mean by “normal food” here.

It’s interesting that there seems to be very little about personal agency in your post, it’s just biological and hormonal reasons without any self determination. Do you believe that people in the UK just developed those biological and hormonal traits recently? Because there were hardly any obese people 60 or 70 years ago and now the obesity rate is one of the highest in Europe.

It’s interesting that there seems to be very little about personal agency in your post, it’s just biological and hormonal reasons without any self determination. Do you believe that people in the UK just developed those biological and hormonal traits recently? Because there were hardly any obese people 60 or 70 years ago and now the obesity rate is one of the highest in Europe.

Do you think there was a mass simultaneous failure of willpower? Or do you think it's more likely that something in our environment changed?

The lack of personal agency in my reply is because we continually insist on suggesting a personal solution to what are largely systemic problems, eg.obesity rates, food availability, food prices, etc, to the detriment to the people worst affected.
And even with all the willpower in the world there are a myriad of other reasons why people don’t all experience “successful”/sustainable weight loss at the same rate.

When I say “normal food” I mean the amount that a body can comfortably live on, not starvation-diet level calories that are excessively low and unsustainable to stick to long term (nor should they be)

I really don’t think weight is about willpower. But yes the environment has changed, people are still making daily decisions though. Japan or South Korea are also highly developed countries.

I often read here on MN about addiction to junk food. It seems to be the only addiction that is perceived as fully outside one’s control, while alcoholics, for instance, get hard love and are expected to seek help and admit they have a problem and get sober. Why is one different than the other?

I think it is our environment.

fridge freezers- when I was a kid massive freezers weren’t common. It was an under counter fridge with an ice box. Shopping had to be done every day.

supermarkets and ease of access- we can buy large amounts of food in bulk. None of this buying enough for one or two days- if we ran out we ran out or walked to the shop.

cars- most households had one car, usually used for the commute to work by dad. My mum walked to the butchers/greengrocers/bakery every day for our fresh stuff. I used to bus or bike round until my mid 30’s when kids activities necessitated a car.

labour saving devices- we spend a lot less of our time doing the cleaning, washing etc. we often outsource due to working full time.

general movement- everything is delivered to our desktop. I don’t move at work now. 20 years ago I was always in and out on errands, library, speaking to it or colleagues etc. physicall walking to another department for a meeting rather than dialling in on zoom.

computers- kids don’t play out all day like we used to. Little things like wanted to watch a film, walk to blockbusters. Take away? Walk to the take out place. Fancy a can of coke and a bar of chocolate? We walked to the corner shop.

i could blame by current difficult losing weight on age, hormones and menopause. However I suspect it’s simply that I’m not as active as I used to be. Evidenced by the last 3 holidays I’ve been on were walking or theme park holidays where I was doing 25k steps a day. I ate out every day, but lost weight. If I had time to spend 8 hours a day walking and an hour messing about in a pool, I’m sure my weight would be easier to control.

Because you need food to live. You don’t need to make decisions about what to smoke or drink 3 times a day in order to live. That’s why food problems are so intensely sensitive and difficult.

Japan is a developed country but our food culture is night and day. There's an article here about food in Japanese schools.
https://www.japanesefoodguide.com/japanese-school-lunch/

What was for lunch in my kids' primary school today? Fish fingers and chips. Tomorrow it's burgers and wedges. We live in an obesogenic environment and we need a massive shift.
In the meantime these drugs are a useful tool.

The manufacturers of UPFs are purposely making foods that are super soft and palatable, that don't fill you up. It is so easy to exceed your calorie needs. You can't trust your body to tell you that you're full as the food is designed in a lab and your body barely recognises it as food. No one HAS to eat them of course, but it's a whole lot easier in a busy modern life and for many it's all they've ever known.

I honestly don’t want to get into a back and forth but it’s very obvious to me that junk food is not needed to live.
I fully agree that we need normal food to live, in normal quantities.

I don’t disagree but :-)

Fridge freezer can be a blessing. It can be used to stock lots of frozen vegetables (cheap and healthy) or to freeze batch cooked meals. Batch cooking and freezing saves time and can also help with portion control.

Cars, buying in bulk and labour saving devices can be used to save time which can be then spent on an active hobby. In an urban area a car can take us out to nature or to a green area.

Online meetings and WFH can save precious time for going out during the lunch break for a walk or a run, or for fixing a normal lunch instead of buying a pack of crap.

When my mother was young if she wanted to check the current nutrition guidelines she would have to make an appointment with the doctor. Nowadays these guidelines from different countries can be searched online, in English, in under a minute. If she wanted to start running, she would not know where to start. There were no dedicated running shoes, no clubs, women were for a long time excluded from running competitions such as marathons. Nowadays even in my small village we have a running club with groups at every level: seniors, beginners, families, orienteering, you name it. The annual club membership is cheaper than a single takeaway for one person.

… and so on. I don’t disagree that the environment is not to blame but every day is still a series of choices and we are not completely without agency.

Not always on a diet, but I often gain some and then I’ll lose it when I hit a certain point. I’m only 5ft 1 and petite so I don’t have many maintenance calories so it’s easy to gain. But I find it easy to lose once I’m in the zone.

As someone that has varied in weight from 9 stone to 14 stone 10, for me personally I know that it is 100% about the food environment/ultra processed food. I will start eating and not stop eating bread, chocolate, crisps when I start on just a small ‘treat’. High carb crap foods that fuel hunger and never satisfy you. Sugar and flour is addictive for me. If I’ve just got ‘healthy’ stuff in the house I can take it or leave it even if I’m hungry.

These days I practice what some might consider disordered eating but it is what keeps my weight under control and works. Fasting, whenever it is required. Usually between 36 - 72 hours. Weirdly find it easy, knowing that I can eat whatever I want when I’m not in a fasting period. I personally could never stick to any healthy eating plan for more than a couple of days.

All food is food. All food keeps us alive.
But if we insist on believing that it is just a case of “cals in cals out” then it shouldn’t matter whether it’s 1000 cals of kale or fries. But of course, there is much more to it than that.
The availability and affordability of different food is a huge issue.

So would you agree that it’s not easy or sustainable to lose weight via low cal and then maintain that weight forever?
Potentially more so for someone who is in a larger body to start with?

It obviously is calories in and calories out. Try to eat 3000 calories worth of kale in one go, can you?
But it is more or less one large pizza. I don’t know anyone who needs 3000 kcal a day to maintain their healthy weight but I have seen many times people ordering a starter, a pizza and a dessert in one sitting.

Do you honestly believe that they would be starving themselves and at risk of developing an eating disorder if they just had half a pizza instead of three courses? I don’t think that 3000 kcal in one go is “normal food”.

I find it easy to lose weight vis less calorie counting (500 a day less than maintenance), but no, most people aren’t going to keep counting and only eat maintenance calories. For me maintenance is around 1500 or less (if I don’t do a lot of steps, and can’t right now as hurt my leg) so I’m always going to gain as I like to eat out with friends. So I have a buffer, when I get to a certain weight or my clothes feel tight, I go back on the diet. I don’t see it as a lifestyle change, just how I manage my weight so it doesn’t get out of control. I find it much easier to lose when I’m doing more steps, it’s a lot harder if I’m moving less so I do think for me that helps so I can still eat around 1300 on a diet and lose.

if I want a chocolate bar and have an apple instead I will eat an apple, then some nuts, then some dates, then some Greek yoghurt, then eat the chocolate bar anyway. If I just have the chocolate bar to begin with, I stop at the chocolate bar because I’ve had what I wanted. For me, it doesn’t trigger anything or make me want more junk. I eat chocolate every day so am
maybe addicted to it in some way but it doesn’t make me want more and more. I just eat (what I consider to be) a reasonable amount and that’s it. It’s really interesting to me how different food affects different people.