Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

Basic science tells us that it ultimately does come down to calories in vs out. Where the science fails us is calorie calculations and to understand this, we need to understand where the calorie itself has come from. The crude calculations of BMR online are just that - crude! They do not account for age, hormones, medication, health conditions and many other things - all of which affect our appetite and how much we eat. The effect of the hunger signal from the brain is completely underestimated and people are then blamed on having no willpower when it is anything but.

If you drastically reduce your calories, you will succeed in the short term but the body will go into starvation mode and signal to the brain to eat more and more. This cannot be easily overcome with willpower - especially if your diet tends to consist of less fresh food and it will force you to eat more and pile on the pounds - usually more than you lost. If weight loss is slow and steady, this is far less likely to happen.

As many Pp have said (and been ridiculed for), not all calories are equal when looking at weight management. This is because the body uses some of the calories to process and digest certain foods such as nuts, fibre and more. Whereas sugar is entirely converted and available as energy.

It is nowhere near as simple as some are making out. Following the basic guidance available online will work for many but not all and where not successful, it is very rarely a case of laziness/no willpower

Yes, but it's not ideal to starve either. Even doing too drastic a diet can make you rather undernourished, and potentially ill. My hair started falling out after I did Fast 800 for 8 weeks.

And if you eat too little you might then binge as our bodies want us to eat. So it's a balance, and you can't just give up food, unlike cigarettes.

I have to disagree with people saying it's not about willpower.

You can eat any diet you like - only cake if you really want to - and still lose weight if you have the will to do so; you just need to stop eating when you've consumed your calories. You'd certainly be hungry if eating only cake to the point of reaching a calorie deficit - 1,200 calories of cake isn't going to do much in terms of satiation - but you'll definitely lose weight.

Less extreme would be eating a 'normal' diet of unprocessed natural food but you'll likely still be hungry on 1,200 calories of that, too. Again, willpower to continue with it will see you lose weight.

It seems to me that some people think you should simply never have to be hungry and therefore it's not your own fault if you eat too much because, well, you must have been hungry.

I think it’s not as simple as that for people who are obese and whose body is sending them the signals they are still hungry or who are addicted and get a hit from eating.

I am 2 weeks into mounjaro and finally know what it’s like to eat like a normal person. Eat my allocated calories and not crave any more (even if I could eat more) or have a square of chocolate or 1 or 2 crisps and not feel any compulsion to eat more.

yes of course if someone obese stuck to calories that put them into a deficit they would lose weight but where “willpower” leaves someone feeling permanently hungry and that they need more food they are bound to crack eventually

I think for most people it does come down to will power. I'd love to eat 6 packets of crisps a day, a couple of chocolate bars, 3 meals, cheese and crackers as a snack, biscuits, couple of bottles of wine a week, beer and more crisps down the pub, eat out with chips twice a week. But I did that and put on 3 stone that I am now slowly trying to lose. And it's taking will power.

Exactly!

I managed to lose 2 stones to get me (just) into normal BMI range 3 years ago and it was hard work sticking to a calorie deficit, and it really continues to be a struggle at times maintaining a steady state of calories in/out to keep it off.

For example in the pub on Sunday afternoon my friend and her husband tucked into large bowls of 'loaded fries' with chilli and cheese piled on top and they looked delicious, but DH and I shared a packet of crisps to nibble rather than give in and join them. It's not that we're deliberately making ourselves miserable by not enjoying an afternoon in the pub - the chips were gone and forgotten about in 10 mins anyway - but I'd have instantly regretted indulging if I'd had them.

There is absolutely no doubting that some people are drawn to comfort eating, to sugar, to excessive amounts of alcohol, etc., but not succumbing to the draw of them is where the willpower comes in because anyone who thinks people who aren't fat are just 'lucky', or that they aren't sometimes hungry/very tempted is, in the vast majority of cases, wrong.

I think it's unhelpful and self-defeating to say losing and maintaining weight isn't down to willpower.

I think you are underestimating the role of hormones and also addiction in SOME - a minority - but still some people in the factors which can lead to obesity. I think basically unless someone has either lived with obesity or a bariatric specialist they don’t really have a clue what they’re talking about. I can exercise willpower fine and not eat chocolate, cakes, crisps - even though I know I could - now that my hunger causing hormones are under control and the “hit” I get from eating has gone.

@DownWithThisKindOfThing I don't disagree with you, addiction is an awful thing and hormones undoubtedly have an effect, as does poverty (though not on cruises), but for most people who are a 2/3/4 stone overweight - it's willpower. And wanting to do things differently.

Yeah that's why everyone has been getting fatter in the last few decades. Lack of willpower.

They just don't make'em like they used to back in the day.

It's processed food, that's caused this.

It's addictive. And once you're on it, it's hard to get off.

It is really disappointing that people don't blame the massive corporations for creating a food environment where people are exposed to endless edible junk full of empty calories that is shockingly addictive (I don't even want to call it food because it does not deserve that status) and instead blame individuals for struggling to resist or not having willpower. We are set up to fail from the outset when the food we are exposed to is designed to have us reaching for more.

Our Western lifestyles simply do not support eating a whole food based diet - classic example how hard calorie counting is with making food so people choose to buy ready made food with a number on the packet even though there are all manner of fillers, gums, emulsifiers, colours and whatever else in it. We shouldn't need to be chasing numbers to stay a normal size

Calories in vcalories out does work it’s very simple science given that a calorie is just a unit of energy.
if we are strictly speaking about weight loss then that’s all you need to do.
often it “doesn’t work” because people don’t measure they’re good or count milky coffeesetc, or they’re deficit is unrealistic and unsustainable and results in binge cycles.

if you’re talking about health, however, that’s a far more complicated thing. You can be a “healthy” weight and still be unhealthy.

I don't know, it's not that hard to make an omelette and salad, or grill a bit of chicken.

@BarrelOfOtters yeah it's not that hard, but it's hard to stock to forever without falling back into addiction.

Hence yo yo dieting.

@deebate fair point

It isn’t for those of us who do it regularly and have easy access to herbs/spices, know how to use them, have cooking utensils etc etc

Meanwhile the edible junk is cheaper, more appealing, easily accessible and in front of our face all the time tempting us to buy it. Someone is running late from work, really hungry and the ready food is just there calling them to buy it instead of preparing a meal.

It's not hard to make on omelette or grill a bit of chicken - when I was just cooking for one I was very slim indeed.

Cooking for a family takes a bit more time and effort particularly when trying to keep calories down yourself but still provide nutritious meals.

Do you think hunger is experienced differently? Would we all be overweight if ravenous? Sometimes hunger massively spikes.

Yeah I think that it could well be.

"Meanwhile the edible junk is cheaper, more appealing, easily accessible and in front of our face all the time tempting us to buy it. Someone is running late from work, really hungry and the ready food is just there calling them to buy it instead of preparing a meal."

We are back to willpower, then.

When I'm late home from work/travel I will still spend 30 mins making a stir-fry, or similar, from scratch, even if that means eating at 8.30/9pm rather than succumb to picking something up to bung in the microwave, however tasty and simple it may be.

Not just willpower, education too. You and I know the stir fry is much better for health. Many others see an affordable alternative with all manner of health claims emblazoned on which requires no effort in preparation so they pick this thinking they are making the right choice. Only it leaves them wanting more food not long after finishing it...and that is when it is very hard to use willpower and not give into the hunger for more (usually sweet) food.

Planning and preparing meals comes naturally to me because that is how I have been brought up so buying a ready meal/ordering a take away doesn't even cross my mind after a long day. It isn't hard to see why others are not the same, especially if the alternative costs less in both time and money

I am surprised why everyone isn't overweight - food is scrumptious and one of the great pleasures of living!
I know someone who lost at least four stone by eating a packet of crisps and a bar of chocolate every day. It is CICO, but of course a diet like that is hardly sustainable.
Yes there are other factors. Some people have faster metabolisms. Other health things going on. But for the vast majority it's CICO. And the issue is people don't stick with it long enough, and go back to their old eating habits when they have managed to lose some, putting it back on.
Don't wait for motivation. Just do it. Like rolling out of bed and heading out for a walk before you let your brain convince yourself that you 'just need' to do X, Y, Z first. With eating just ask: is this piece of bread/second helping/chocolate going to help me get to my goal? No? Don't eat it. Don't bargain, don't think, just put it down (or throw it out or pour water on it). Walk away. Feeling hunger is not going to harm you and you will train yourself to expect less food. I bulk out every meal with loads of veg - I like to feel full. This helps me from feeling deprived. Sure a pile of broccoli is not the same as a brownie, that's where the 'will it help me get to my goal' comes in. And if going to a celebration and know you'll have cake? Factor it in. Eat less the day before and the following.

User14March
Do you think hunger is experienced differently? Would we all be overweight if ravenous? Sometimes hunger massively spikes.

I have never been overweight but I have lost vanity pounds at times.
I think hunger may be experienced differently by different people. When I was pregnant, my appetite was astonishing. I would buy a cake to eat on the way back to the car at the supermarket, stop at garages for scotch eggs, eat sandwiches, crisps and cake for lunch. DH said he had never seen me finish a full meal until I was pregnant.
I'm glad it stopped after pregnancy but I do wonder if some people feel like that all the time.

@mondaytosunday some have to eat very little compared to others to be slim. The seeming injustice of this can be difficult. Age plays a huge role in this I think & is overlooked as does genetics, endomorphs/ectomorphs, etc. Some families are skinny to 20s & get very big in middle age, others don’t, height etc. All factor in.

The aristocracy long & lean, the plebs of yore not so much. :). Norfolk girls were favoured re: kitchen maids in 1930s, small waists but sturdy, big hips, bust, built to prop up the bothy in storms & survive famine. :) Seen not to ‘wear out’ so fast by employers! Girls used to pretend to be from Norfolk to get work! Unbelievably…

It's down to hunger.

People who aren't constantly hungry have no idea.
Willpower, bla bla bla. The urge to eat if you are hungry is overwhelming and hard to beat over any period of time. That why people fail .
The smug "just eat less" brigade have no clue.

We all have that tiny friend who eats half a plate and is full to over flowing. That's because their brain reacts to food in such a way that their body is flooded with "stop eating you are full " hormones.

Many people simply don't get those signals until they have eaten a very large amount of food.

It's not "will power"
The folk who eat a moderate amount and feel satiety are simply very lucky in how their hormone systems function .

Nope and nope. Even the concept of calories is inaccurate, people don’t all use the same amount of calories digesting the same food. There are so so many reasons, physical, hormonal, biological, socioeconomic, why people are the size and shape they are and it’s SO much more complex than “discipline”.
I highly recommend the podcast Maintenance Phase and the books by Aubrey Gordon to learn more about why “losing weight” isn’t as simple as we like to think.