Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

It took me two months to get used to smaller portions and not being hungry after. You do get used to it.
Knowing you are hungry and takes longer for body to react is also manageable. I found out that putting right portion on plate meant I had to wiat 15 min or so after. Then it was suddenly "yeah we full".
The feelings and habits are manageable. There will be evry few people who genuinely cannot due to their body reactions (like there are few folks who don't feel pain at all etc)

Whatever the reason/excuse it still comes back to CICO.

Whether the 'calories out' are burnt through digestion, climbing Everest, or breathing in and out as you watch TV is irrelevant to the laws of thermodynamics.

@WantToMakeWorldSilkySmooth not so for many, hunger rumbles & is ever present. Regular, small meals may help to keep blood sugar constant as prevent hunger spikes. It’s very individual, intermittent fasting just makes me ravenous for example.

It was the same for me. When I ate more my body wanted more, I was more hungry more of time. A tortuous few months later and my body adjusted and no longer demanded all of the food. I honestly never thought I'd be a person could that take or leave chocolate. I've had a bar of it in the fridge since Easter at this point and just haven't fancied it. I eat a lot less now and rarely feel hungry in the same way I used to and have tons more energy.

It doesn’t though. You and someone else of the same size/weight/BMI could eat the same thing and do the same exercise and for a myriad of reasons you would not necessarily lose or gain the same weight.

it’s easy to say “but thermodynamics” if you chose to ignore nuance.

If it truly came down to calories and “discipline” then everyone would be able to control their weight by choice and that’s simply not the case.

It is.

It doesn’t matter what one person can do and another can’t, and what individual calorie burn is.

if you burn 1700 calories a day, if you eat less than that you will lose weight.

what your mate can or cannot eat to lose the same is irrelevant. We all have different muscle mass, hormone balances, metabolic rates. If you are gaining weight you need to reduce calories in and/or expend more calories out.

two individuals are not comparable, and doesn’t negate CICO. It just means CI and CO are different for each person.

If it truly came down to calories and “discipline” then everyone would be able to control their weight by choice and that’s simply not the case

It is for most. It's that simple, it's just really not that easy.

I pretty much always cook good meals from scratch, or mostly from scratch (eg I’ll do a stir fry with lots of veg etc, but I’ll use a small packet hoisin sauce and I won’t make my own noodles, I’ll use dried). I can easily knock up food, we are “an ingredients house” to use that cringy term. Hardly ever buy ready meals and takeaways are v occasional (less than monthly).

Im still way overweight. I eat too much of the great food I cook. My portions are too big. I pick up bags of crisps from the machine at work, or eat too much Easter chocolate. It’s entirely possible to be a great cook and be overweight. I do get that people stuck on ready meals are going to find it harder to eat healthily of course, but us great cooks can be just as susceptible.

Again, there are many reasons why fat people can’t lose weight with a simple calorie deficit.

Again, I’d love to recommend the books by Aubrey Gordon “You just need to lose weight and 19 other myths about fat people” and “what we don’t talk about when we talk about fat”. Listen to “the trouble with calories” episode of her podcast. Learn about leptin and ghrelin. (While you’re there find out why the BMI is bs)

Diets don’t work for most people. Restricting calories does not always guarantee weight loss but even when it does, your body wants to gain it back (and when it does you’re labelled a failure). And then you’re yoyo dieting indefinitely and causing permanent damage.

https://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/you-just-need-to-lose-weight-book/

https://www.yourfatfriend.com/home/2018/5/10/on-tough-love-and-your-fat-friends-health?format=amp

The chances of a woman classified as obese ever achieving and maintaining a “normal” weight is 0.8 percent.

“What is clear is that modern science has thoroughly debunked the idea of “calories in, calories out,” or that you need to create a 3,500-calorie deficit to lose a pound(Myth 2). Ditto for the idea that losing weight and keeping it off is a simple matter of willpower. But that doesn’t fit society’s narratives and expectations about weight, which are grounded in anti-fatness.”
https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/what-does-the-book-you-just-need-to-lose-weight-get-right-everything/

“Since 1959, research has shown that 95 to 98 percent of attempts to lose weight fail and that two-thirds of dieters gain back more than they lost. The reasons are biological and irreversible.”

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong

“This idea of 'a calorie in and a calorie out' when it comes to weight loss is not only antiquated, it's just wrong," says Dr. Fatima Cody Stanford, an obesity specialist and assistant professor of medicine and pediatrics at Harvard Medical School.”

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/stop-counting-calories

Again, there are many reasons why fat people can’t lose weight with a simple calorie deficit.

@SergeantDawkins

You can't not lose weight with a calorie deficit.

It is simply impossible to not lose weight in calorie deficit.

People keep telling you this but either you're finding it difficult to understand, for some reason, or you truly believe that scientific facts don't apply to some people.

It is not sustainable though. We could all drink lemon water for 2 weeks and lose weight. But we will regain that weight the moment we eat again, and more, and every time have done more damage to our bodies. I am answering the original question. No, it is not ALL about calories in, calories out and “discipline” in most cases in fact it’s barely about that. It’s well established now that it’s not all about calories in calories out. Scientists agree.

Your scientific fact here is basically “but starvation is a thing” well yes indeed but it’s not a way to live.

I got fat on healthy wholesome food while having good gut biome and plenty of sleep....

It is CICO. Even the Harvard article doesn’t disagree, it simply suggest eating healthily, getting exercise and sleep is a better approach to weight control than all the “diets” and focussing on calories.

the difficulty is finding a way of eating that reduces your calories to result in a slow weight loss, and can be maintained indefinitely with tweaks to whether you want to lose, maintain or gain.

Totally agree. And understanding that you can’t do what others do. When I eat the same as my husband and growing children, I pile on weight but they don’t. Kids cos they’re growing and are more active, H because he’s a little more active but his body doesn’t seem to put on weight no matter how much he eats or snacks. I have to always eat a lot less than them to stay a good weight. I have to have a lot more will power. That’s what is annoying and makes it difficult for me. But it’s still CICO for me.

That's exactly how I lost 12st in my early 20s. I counted calories but ate junk.

It works.

Luckily I've now realised that it's better to eat lots of low calorie stuff than 5 chocolate bars.

The vast, vast majority of importance IS on calories in v out. There are things you can do/eat to improve metabolism etc but it is still PREDOMINANTLY calorie consumption.

I’ve only ever met people who claim to eat healthy, nutrient-dense small portions and NOT lose weight online.

In real life whenever I am among strangers eating (e.g. breakfast in a hotel) the overwhelming majority of overweight and obese people eat large amounts of unhealthy food.

If weight were not related to the amount of calories we consume there wouldn’t be many millions of people dying of starvation in the 20th century alone.

Even starvation looks different in different people. A large amount of people with eating disorders, starving their bodies, not getting periods etc, are still in fat bodies.
“Atypical anorexia” has the exact same behaviours and physical consequences as Anorexia, the only difference is BMI of the patient.

If low calorie eating simply worked then everyone with a restrictive eating disorder would be thin and that’s just not the case.

It’s all well and good to be like “a low cal diet will make you lose weight” if weight is ALL you believe is an indicator of health and good living. It’s not ok to suggest that fat people simply don’t have the discipline to force themselves into disordered eating for the sake of the way they look, above all other indicators of health.

I watched a video where a doctor was talking about Ozempic and how it works by regulating the hormones that cause hunger. He said that in order to reduce hunger we need to be mindful about what we eat, that it’s important to eat more protein than carbohydrates and to avoid processed food because it doesn’t trigger the hormones enough to make you feel full. I have had a weight problem for years since I had a long term relationship with a man who lived on fatty foods and sugar so I stupidly thought that if he wasn’t bothered about his weight why should I be. At the moment I am slowly losing weight by eating within an eight hour window and exercising and walking. I am not weighing myself because I have failed in the past when the scales tell me I haven’t lost any weight. But I know that my clothes are looser and I am going in the right direction. I’m aware that cutting out one meal a day is going to automatically reduce my calories intake, and that the steps and exercise are burning calories so with that in mind, it is definitely calories out and in that is the basis of what I am doing.

Quite. And not doing what others do means for me logging all my food and watching portion sizes all the time to make sure they don't creep up- weighing a lot of things to check. I'm still a stone overweight but not three stone overweight.

When I was simply "eating healthily, getting exercise and sleep" that's how I ended up two stone heavier than I am now. As my appetite and hunger is just the same as it was 20 years ago but unfortunately I can't eat that much any more and stay slim.

"He said that in order to reduce hunger we need to be mindful about what we eat, that it’s important to eat more protein than carbohydrates and to avoid processed food because it doesn’t trigger the hormones enough to make you feel full. "

I definitely don't eat more protein than carbs- on a good day I might have 100g protein, 150g carbs and 30g fibre. The carbs are whole though and mostly come from fruit and veg, wholemeal bread, wholewheat pasta, potatoes with skins, brown rice, lentils and beans, not doughnuts, chocolate and biscuits.

It's the protein + fat + fibre combination which brings most satisfaction for the calories for me, and some foods like wholewheat pasta have all three and are extremely helpful in my diet as well as tasty.

As are processed foods like cheese, tofu, frozen veg, wholemeal bread, tinned/packet pulses, cooked meat and fish. They are processed for our convenience- unfortunately we can't grow lentils in the UK (I have tried with chickpeas which did not go well).

What's the big deal with feeling hungry?

Genuine question.

I love food, I love eating it, being hungry, and the anticipation of satisfying that hunger, is all part of enjoying food for me.

@OneTC I like it too but for some it’s harder to stop & the act of eating seems to trigger ravenous hunger.

I think I was sort of agreeing that it is calories in calories out, however it’s not a good method really .. as you could live off chocolate! However , I have now joined WW which is sort of CACO !!

goo luck whatever method you use !x