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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
Shja · 03/05/2024 22:28

Dineasair · 03/05/2024 19:58

Maybe they should have thought of that when they broke the ceasefire on 7th of October and took all those hostages, which is defined as a war crime under the Geneva Convention, and just maybe they could stop using the civilian population as human shields.

Either educate urself or stop spreading misinformation. This is the digital age. All the information you need is out there.

Shja · 03/05/2024 22:36

‘Israel cannot use military force against the occupied Palestinian people because under international law, the occupier has a duty to protect the territory it occupies’

Happyhoppy15 · 03/05/2024 23:41

Shja · 03/05/2024 22:24

‘One of the most insidious lies repeated ad nauseam by Israel’s supporters is that “there was a ceasefire on Oct. 6th, 2023.” Let’s have a look.
On Oct. 5, 2023, Israeli forces killed 3 Palestinians in the West Bank, including Abd al-Rahman Atta & Hudhayfah Fares. Then, Israeli forces prevented medics from reaching the victims and took their bodies hostage, a decades-old Israeli policy used to gain leverage in negotiations with Palestinians. The practice has been described as “psychological torture,” since it leaves the families of the victims with the false hope that their loved ones may still be alive’

I am not excusing what Israel or Hamas is doing but how is the psychological harm you mention any different to the families in Israel who have loved ones taken hostage by hamas and no word?
the only people that suffer in war is innocent people so I am not in support of any of this but there is suffering on both sides.

Dineasair · 03/05/2024 23:45

Shja · 03/05/2024 22:28

Either educate urself or stop spreading misinformation. This is the digital age. All the information you need is out there.

There seems to be claim and counter claim here so it’s not clear what really happened but I suppose that’s quite common with incidents like this, it’s hard to judge on something like that in this kind of ongoing conflict. The Israelis claim that there were shots fired at them in that incident by Hamas fighters mixed in with the family and that they returned fire.

What is clear is that Hamas did take hostages, which is classed as a war crime, and that they do use the civilian population as human shields. I just think that involving non-combatants in that way is beyond contempt. War is war, Gaza shells Israel and Israel shells Gaza, and innocent civilians are killed on both sides, it happens in every war. The taking of hostages and using non-combatant civilians as shields is a different thing altogether. If the reports are true then Israel shouldn’t be using snipers to shoot civilians either, but of course they claim that these civilians are fighters, it’s hard to argue that their not because they don’t wear uniforms as soldiers do. War is just so dreadful, there aren’t any real winners, because everybody loses something or someone.

Shja · 04/05/2024 00:04

Dineasair · 03/05/2024 23:45

There seems to be claim and counter claim here so it’s not clear what really happened but I suppose that’s quite common with incidents like this, it’s hard to judge on something like that in this kind of ongoing conflict. The Israelis claim that there were shots fired at them in that incident by Hamas fighters mixed in with the family and that they returned fire.

What is clear is that Hamas did take hostages, which is classed as a war crime, and that they do use the civilian population as human shields. I just think that involving non-combatants in that way is beyond contempt. War is war, Gaza shells Israel and Israel shells Gaza, and innocent civilians are killed on both sides, it happens in every war. The taking of hostages and using non-combatant civilians as shields is a different thing altogether. If the reports are true then Israel shouldn’t be using snipers to shoot civilians either, but of course they claim that these civilians are fighters, it’s hard to argue that their not because they don’t wear uniforms as soldiers do. War is just so dreadful, there aren’t any real winners, because everybody loses something or someone.

Did you read the excerpt about the children in the military prisons? How do they explain that away? Oh wait, I know that one: they’ll grow up to be terrorists so they need to keep them restrained and abused. That’ll stop them becoming terrorists right? This has been going on for 75 years. Israel may be a democracy for their people but not for the Palestinians. You can only call it a democracy if it’s that for ALL its citizens not a select few.

Shja · 04/05/2024 00:25

Amnesty international:

Islam groups calling for caliphate in Germany, aibu to be petrified?
Happyhoppy15 · 04/05/2024 00:25

Surely this whole thing should be condemned. Let’s stop focusing on Palestine being the only victim in this. Let’s remember all the victims here, yes what is happening in Palestine is awful, it’s also awful what Palestine did to Israel. Lots of babies/children were hurt then too. The whole thing is wrong. Let’s call out Hamas and Israel. I don’t think just calling out Israel which has been done for months now is achieving anything and in fact is potentially even making people lose sympathy for what is happening in Palestine as it may appear that there is lack of recognition of the actions of the government many Palestinians voted in and continue to support. As others have said Palestine carried out war crimes on Israel which started this. Maybe the Palestine people need help to overturn Hamas??

SometimesItMightBeNice · 04/05/2024 02:11

Shja · 03/05/2024 22:20

‘A Save the Children's report in July 2023 showed that even prior to October 7, Palestinian children arrested by Israeli forces faced immense emotional and physical abuse, with four out of five - 86% - of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched.

Each year approximately 500-700 Palestinian children, some as young as 12 years old, are detained and prosecuted in the Israeli military court system. The most common charge is stone throwing’

I'm really struggling to understand the point of your posts. You've consistently posted anti Israeli quotes for pages and pages now, but rarely explain the context. What are you trying to achieve? We get it, loud and clear, you loathe Israel and deem them entirely responsible for the conflict. If that's your intention, your jobs done . some of us have a more nuanced response to the conflict and prefer a broader range of material to refer to; which is far more balanced than simply pointing the finger and laying blame at one party's feet.

Teddleshon · 04/05/2024 08:34

@SometimesItMightBeNice It’s very tiresome isn’t it? Endless quotes and links to videos and articles etc. It’s in every Middle Eastern thread and rather defeats the purpose of Mumsnet which is to engage with people.

PinkTonic · 04/05/2024 09:35

Teddleshon · 04/05/2024 08:34

@SometimesItMightBeNice It’s very tiresome isn’t it? Endless quotes and links to videos and articles etc. It’s in every Middle Eastern thread and rather defeats the purpose of Mumsnet which is to engage with people.

Given this thread is about the German demonstration calling for a Caliphate rather than the current conflict in the Middle East and is not in that topic, I’m having to assume that the completely out of context anti Israel/ pro Palestine propaganda is in support of that call? Otherwise wouldn’t it be against Talk Guidelines? 🤔

Teddleshon · 04/05/2024 10:20

@PinkTonic sorry, I’m not sure I understand your point. I didn’t say this was a Middle Eastern thread I just meant the endless referencing to external sources also appears in every Middle Eastern thread. I also didn’t say it was out of context.

Dineasair · 04/05/2024 10:42

Shja · 04/05/2024 00:04

Did you read the excerpt about the children in the military prisons? How do they explain that away? Oh wait, I know that one: they’ll grow up to be terrorists so they need to keep them restrained and abused. That’ll stop them becoming terrorists right? This has been going on for 75 years. Israel may be a democracy for their people but not for the Palestinians. You can only call it a democracy if it’s that for ALL its citizens not a select few.

I was talking about the use of non-combatants in war, of course it isn’t right to imprison children, at the same time as it’s not right to use child soldiers, but many do. I’m not a Jew or a Muslim, so I’m not in any way involved in this dreadful conflict, but I do believe that what was done by Hamas was so utterly horrific that it couldn’t have had any other outcome than it did. I am also pretty sure that was deliberate, and was done in that way in order to not only provoke Israel, but to do so in such a way that they would react in the way that they have.

Hamas doesn’t seem to care too much for the people that they claim to be fighting for, as they site their operations bases under hospitals and schools, using the population as human shields. They seem to be doing this as a way to increase sympathy and therefore raise donations across the world, as the more children that are killed, the more outrage is generated and the more donations rise, always follow the money. There is a claim that much of that money is being funnelled to the real leaders of Hamas, who are not based in Gaza, as it’s claimed that all monies going into Gaza are taxed. If this is true, then it’s a cynical ploy, and is both sickening and heartbreaking to watch.

The view of many is that the conflict in Gaza is just a part of a much bigger picture and that it’s being directed by militant Muslim interests outside of Gaza. I don’t know if this is true but I’m not inclined to take either side at face value. I’m not very knowledgeable of the deep history of the conflict, any more than the average person out on the demonstrations, I’m really basing my opinion solely on events that happened on and since October 7th last year.

People are the same the world over, we are all identical under the skin. When you strip away culture and religion there is no difference between a human being in Europe and one in Africa or the Middle East. Most people are good and decent, many are self-serving, many are stupid and naive and will believe whatever it suits them to believe, but there are very many bad people, many downright wicked people also, that is a sad fact of the human condition. We are seeing that play out across the West at the moment, and we can only hope that the good people win. People say that the cream always rises to the top, but unfortunately the sad fact is that shit floats.

Shja · 04/05/2024 10:58

I am afraid that I don’t support the powerful. I am with the weak and oppressed. Palestinians do not have sophisticated weapons to fight with. (Note I said Palestinians not Hamas). Palestinians don’t have the backing of the US, UK and other powerful countries. How do you suggest they git rid of Hamas when they are struggling to survive right now? Israel provided no evidence that UNRWA were involved in the killings on Oct 7 and yet aid was withdrawn. Israel is not in danger of starving to death. So yes, I will always support people who are right now, being ethnically cleansed. If you don’t see that from all my posts, I’m feel sorry for you all. There’s really no hope for you at all. I will stop now, I tried my best to educate but you are not willing to open your mind.

MotherofGorgons · 04/05/2024 11:03

I see your point @Shja while also being entirely anti-Hamas, and indeed anti-religion. Though I try to not discuss Palestine any more as I am sick to the stomach about what is happening. I won't be discussing this any more, but just wanted to say that I hear you.

Louloulouenna · 04/05/2024 11:08

@Shja really ? The powerful versus the oppressed? Nothing about right or wrong?

There are around 16 million Jews in the world and 1.9 billion Muslims. If Hamas succeeded in their aim to obliterate the only homeland the Jews have annd subsequently enriched the Palestinians in the process (I know right, not going to happen) would you switch sides?

PinkTonic · 04/05/2024 11:23

Teddleshon · 04/05/2024 10:20

@PinkTonic sorry, I’m not sure I understand your point. I didn’t say this was a Middle Eastern thread I just meant the endless referencing to external sources also appears in every Middle Eastern thread. I also didn’t say it was out of context.

No sorry, I was making that point. I think I was agreeing with you, although obviously didn’t make myself clear.

Dineasair · 04/05/2024 12:00

Dineasair · 04/05/2024 10:42

I was talking about the use of non-combatants in war, of course it isn’t right to imprison children, at the same time as it’s not right to use child soldiers, but many do. I’m not a Jew or a Muslim, so I’m not in any way involved in this dreadful conflict, but I do believe that what was done by Hamas was so utterly horrific that it couldn’t have had any other outcome than it did. I am also pretty sure that was deliberate, and was done in that way in order to not only provoke Israel, but to do so in such a way that they would react in the way that they have.

Hamas doesn’t seem to care too much for the people that they claim to be fighting for, as they site their operations bases under hospitals and schools, using the population as human shields. They seem to be doing this as a way to increase sympathy and therefore raise donations across the world, as the more children that are killed, the more outrage is generated and the more donations rise, always follow the money. There is a claim that much of that money is being funnelled to the real leaders of Hamas, who are not based in Gaza, as it’s claimed that all monies going into Gaza are taxed. If this is true, then it’s a cynical ploy, and is both sickening and heartbreaking to watch.

The view of many is that the conflict in Gaza is just a part of a much bigger picture and that it’s being directed by militant Muslim interests outside of Gaza. I don’t know if this is true but I’m not inclined to take either side at face value. I’m not very knowledgeable of the deep history of the conflict, any more than the average person out on the demonstrations, I’m really basing my opinion solely on events that happened on and since October 7th last year.

People are the same the world over, we are all identical under the skin. When you strip away culture and religion there is no difference between a human being in Europe and one in Africa or the Middle East. Most people are good and decent, many are self-serving, many are stupid and naive and will believe whatever it suits them to believe, but there are very many bad people, many downright wicked people also, that is a sad fact of the human condition. We are seeing that play out across the West at the moment, and we can only hope that the good people win. People say that the cream always rises to the top, but unfortunately the sad fact is that shit floats.

What I meant by this is that the bad people everywhere seem to end up in charge in situations like this. Cream floats but so does shit, or variations of it, is a saying that many people here tend to use, it was an unfortunate choice of words though and I apologise for that.

Teddleshon · 04/05/2024 12:29

@PinkTonic aha - sorry!

Happyhoppy15 · 04/05/2024 13:26

Shja · 04/05/2024 10:58

I am afraid that I don’t support the powerful. I am with the weak and oppressed. Palestinians do not have sophisticated weapons to fight with. (Note I said Palestinians not Hamas). Palestinians don’t have the backing of the US, UK and other powerful countries. How do you suggest they git rid of Hamas when they are struggling to survive right now? Israel provided no evidence that UNRWA were involved in the killings on Oct 7 and yet aid was withdrawn. Israel is not in danger of starving to death. So yes, I will always support people who are right now, being ethnically cleansed. If you don’t see that from all my posts, I’m feel sorry for you all. There’s really no hope for you at all. I will stop now, I tried my best to educate but you are not willing to open your mind.

@Shja but why don’t the protests start with free innocent Palestine from Hamas and Israel? Currently it appears (happy to be corrected) that in all these mass protests, paid for advertising on social media, and on many news forums that those that support Palestine are only calling out Israel. I think it’s horrific what’s happening on both sides but I can see wrong on both sides. Like I say how it is presented to me is that those pro palestine can’t see the wrong their government has done. Ethnic cleansing can be argued the other way too as to what palestine did to Israel. In all fairness, the attack was so horrific including young women, children, babies on Israel from Palestine I am not sure what was expected. If France did that to the UK for example there would be hell on and I’m sure that would be condoned by many whilst recognising the sadness it brings. You only have to look at the latest post trending on here, the farmer that shot an armed robber. Many sympathise at the life lost but also condone the ability to protect themselves. Israel report they will stop this when their hostages including babies are released.

To be clear I cannot stand war, innocent lives are lost on both sides and it’s always the innocent that lose out

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