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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
Meadowfinch · 30/04/2024 17:46

The demonstrators can ask for whatever they want. They won't get it so don't worry about it.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:47

Underthinker · 30/04/2024 17:13

Are you suggesting that Hamas want to end the war and are keen to give back the hostages but can't because they were killed by Israelis?

No, I am referring to the grimly comic / comically tragic event where the Israeli army shot two Israeli hostages in Gaza who were bare chested shouting out in Hebrew and waving white flags.

suburburban · 30/04/2024 17:50

@Dineasair

That would be my perspective

Just leave how we live and our way of life alone or don't come

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:50

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 12:13

Look, you do you. But don't you dare try to silence someone who has spent the last 50 years speaking up for women like me, and amplifying the voices of women who ask us to do that.

I haven't painted anyone with a broad brush, that is in your head. And i haven't said anything about what you do to amply the voices of your sisters. I simply have no influence on that: you do you.

The experiences of women in a variety of countries (predominently muslim or not) is naturally different. It is interesting that despite me having asked on 2 separate threads nobody will tell me (and i could google but will i get the right answer? no idea) if the word of a woman carries the same weight as that of a man under sharia law.

Women in Saudi Arabia have been recently allowed to drive, although they were allowed in universities already. Their reality is very different to those women in Afghanistan. The women in Saudi Arabia didn't ask us to amplify their voices: so i left them to it.

honestly the constant need to try to needle and pick holes is tiresome. I will ALWAYS put girls and women first. Always.

I doubt there are any Sharia scholars on this thread of lawyers specialising in comparative legal systems.

Wikipedia provides this analysis, in part leveraging a rather elderly UNICEF report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women%27s_testimony_in_Islam

Status of women's testimony in Islam - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women%27s_testimony_in_Islam

Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/04/2024 17:56

Louloulouenna · 30/04/2024 12:48

I have long been puzzled how Islamic fundamentalism isn’t “far right”. It literally ticks every box.

A lot of the fundamentalism's cultural since nothing in Islam justifies some of the things tits adherents advocate, but yes it's so far right it's off the scale - with the attitudes involved it can't really be anything else

However it also often involves "brown people" who are catnip to the extreme left, so they tend not to notice

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:57

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 11:28

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

But it’s not though is it? There is no statistical warrant to justify the claim that Israel is committing genocide.

Since October 7, the term “genocide” gets thrown around by people who demonstrate an astonishingly lack of intellectual engagement with the actual evidence.

To Israelis, Hamas’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of more than 1,400 people prove that Hamas is committed to its goals of making Palestine Judenrein through violent jihad and exterminating Jews.

On MN and on other social media accounts, on uni campuses and in the partisan halls of the UN, Israel’s response to Hamas’s orgy of death is self-evident genocide. This rhetoric is awash in certainty, even though factual analyses yield little evidence of actual genocide.

Mass killing by itself does not constitute genocide - World Wars I and II demonstrate the distinction. It is estimated that the number of World War I war-related deaths stands at 16-17 million, yet only the Ottoman murders of Armenians (1-1.5 million), Assyrians (750,000), and ethnic Greeks (348,000) were genocidal in that same war.

Currently some argue that large number of deaths in are proof of Israeli genocide. Recently Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) claimed that 33,137 Gazans had been killed in the war, while Israel maintains that more than 13,000 of those deaths were Hamas combatants. If we accept these unconfirmed figures, approximately 20,000 Gazan civilians have died.

To determine whether these deaths constitute genocide, compare the Gaza war to other modern wars: The percentages of Gazans killed (1.52%) and civilians killed out of the total population (0.92%) are all dramatically lower than their corresponding categories in other major wars. During World War I, 3.8% of all Russians died, while 8.57% of its civilians were killed. In World War II, 6.1% of German citizens died and 1.13% of German civilians were killed, while 10.5% of all Russians and 4.1% of Russian civilians were killed. In the Korean War, 12-15% of North Koreans were killed, while 10.2% of North Korean civilians died.

None of those campaigns were categorized as genocide since they reflect only the lethal nature of these wars. If those vastly more lethal campaigns were not genocide, it is difficult to see how the Israeli campaign in Gaza, with its immensely lower percentages of population and civilians killed, could qualify as genocide.

Another important indicator of genocide is the ratio of civilian casualties to enemy combatant deaths. If the intent is the destruction of a group, then civilians will represent a high casualty ratio relative to combatants. BUT, a low ratio of civilian-to-combatant deaths augurs for general lethality, not genocide.

In the non-genocidal campaigns of World War II, the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was approximately 2:1. In the Korean War, it was 3:1; in the Persian Gulf War, it was 9:1; and in the Iraq War, it was 2:1.

In today’s Gaza war, it is 20,000/13,000 or 1.54:1. The low 1.54:1 Gaza ratio is notable because the war is being fought in dense urban areas where civilians have little protection, while Hamas fighters are protected in underground tunnels.

Hamas has also cynically positioned its military assets in and under schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. They have perfected the method of deploying “the human shield”, fundamentally .

Still, it’s impossible to remain insensitive to the immense tragedy in Gaza. As you’ve pointed out, seeing dead children being pulled from the rubble is intolerable. And so is knowing that Kfir Bibas (1 year old) and his brother Ariel (4) are being held captive by murderous monsters. They are not the only ones.

Emotional recoil easily overcomes careful thinking. Meanwhile, there is great political value for some in describing Israel’s actions as genocide: it condemns Israel of the most heinous of crimes, thereby strengthening the radical argument to dismantle the Jewish state. And this radical argument is being pushed most vociferously by those who hate the West also, so be very wary of it.

You parroting this line without a solid understanding of international law or any tangible evidence (in other words, assumptions made on “just a feeling”) are emboldening the very people that want to dispose of liberal values entirely. That’s not a future I want, and I’m not sure it’s one you want either, if you’re being perfectly honest.

We CANNOT conflate genocide with the general hellishness of war, otherwise the term genocide losses unique descriptive and prescriptive meaning.

If the war in Gaza constitutes genocide, then so do World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and all conflicts with horrific lethality. This is problem because, for example, then Nazi extermination campaigns against Jews, Roma, ethnic Slavs etc. become no worse than any bloody war. The creates immense harm because genocide as a distinctive concept of extreme evil will have died, as will our conviction to prevent its recurrence.

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the legal definition of genocide and study the ICC court judgement as to why the court thought it was plausible that Israel was committing genocide based on the first four grounds in the legal definition:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 18:24

I’m not really clear on what it is that Israel is doing that is different from what has happened in any other conflict?

Can someone please explain?

How is what Israel are doing genocide, and how is it different from other conflicts?

Also, would Hamas’ actions on 7 October not be considered genocidal?

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 18:33

The actual ruling from the ICJ is that “at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible” including the “rights of the Palestinians in Gaza to be protected from acts of genocide and related prohibited acts”.

So no, the ICC (a different entity and criminal, not civil as the ICJ) has not ruled that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide.

Louloulouenna · 30/04/2024 18:46

@Vivi0 Yup, it’s a war. And like a lot of wars it’s completely hideous and is taking a horrendous toll on civilians.

SometimesItMightBeNice · 30/04/2024 19:46

I must admit I'm struggling with the genocide definition as well. The war in Ukraine is not considered genocide, so how is it different? Are they both not just wars? I've always believed genocide to be like what's happening in Myanmar with the rohingyar Muslims, where they have been deliberately persecuted/ killed due to their religion. Can anyone explain, beyond just the definition?

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:06

SometimesItMightBeNice · 30/04/2024 19:46

I must admit I'm struggling with the genocide definition as well. The war in Ukraine is not considered genocide, so how is it different? Are they both not just wars? I've always believed genocide to be like what's happening in Myanmar with the rohingyar Muslims, where they have been deliberately persecuted/ killed due to their religion. Can anyone explain, beyond just the definition?

A lot of reading but might be most factual to go back to the ICJ orders

26th Jan https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

28th March https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240328-ord-01-00-en.pdf

There is indeed a genocide case about Ukraine
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/182

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:11

Palestine is also a really unusual country, no one and nothing enters or leaves without Israeli permission.

Rageh Omaar did an interesting account in 2007
Part one
Part two

Witness Special: The Hostages of Gaza - 04 Jul 07 - Part 1

Rageh Omaar returns to Gaza to investigate the kidnapping of BBC journalist Alan Johnston and many others plus an exclusive interview with Sheikh Salah Dughm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiUcDWp_YFc

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 20:24

@NerdWhoEatsMedlar Given Hamas’s stated and oft repeated aim to destroy the state of Israel and murder all Jews together with their history of constant terrorist and rocket attacks on Israel, this approach doesn’t really seem that “unusual”.

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 20:33

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:06

A lot of reading but might be most factual to go back to the ICJ orders

26th Jan https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

28th March https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240328-ord-01-00-en.pdf

There is indeed a genocide case about Ukraine
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/182

I have read these documents. They state:

It alleges, in particular, the commission of the following acts with genocidal intent: killing, causing serious bodily and mental harm, inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group. According to South Africa, genocidal intent is evident from the way in which Israel’s military attack is being conducted, from the clear pattern of conduct of Israel in Gaza and from the statements made by Israeli officials in relation to the military operation in the Gaza Strip. The Applicant also contends that “[t]he intentional failure of the Government of Israel to condemn, prevent and punish such genocidal incitement constitutes in itself a grave violation of the Genocide Convention”. South Africa stresses that any stated intention by the Respondent to destroy Hamas does not preclude genocidal intent by Israel towards the whole or part of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

But I’m no clearer on what it is that Israel is actually doing that is different from what has happened in any other conflict, or how Israel’s actions in this conflict amount to genocide, and how those actions differ from those involved in other conflicts.

I get the impression that a case for genocide could be made for every and any conflict. Is the conflict in Syria a genocide? I see that there is a case for Ukraine. Is that a genocide too? I believe ISIS’ actions amount to genocide. Hamas’ actions are certainly genocidal.

Is all killing in conflict now considered genocide? If not, can someone please explain to me the difference?

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:34

@Teddleshon , thank you for telling me that you haven't watched the videos.
This "approach" was in place before Hamas.

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 20:35

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:34

@Teddleshon , thank you for telling me that you haven't watched the videos.
This "approach" was in place before Hamas.

The conflict has been ongoing long before Hamas.

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 20:37

And so have the terrorist and rocket attacks.

callmej · 30/04/2024 20:43

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:34

@Teddleshon , thank you for telling me that you haven't watched the videos.
This "approach" was in place before Hamas.

Out of interest, any issue with the Egyptians blockading palestine? Or is it just Jews doing it that you object to?

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:47

callmej · 30/04/2024 20:43

Out of interest, any issue with the Egyptians blockading palestine? Or is it just Jews doing it that you object to?

The Egyptians also can't allow any one or anything in or out of Gaza without the permission of Israel.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 20:49

Genocide, in my understanding, is a systematic determination to destroy a group of people because of their race or religion. So the Nazi's intention to eliminate Jews was genocide. Six million were sent to the gas chambers in Germany and the territories it invaded/conquered during WW2. And Israel was borne from that.

Today Israel is a liberal democratic state, with rights for everyone (Black, white, lesbian etc who is willing to abide by the laws of Israel). But it is a state forged from struggle and not one that will roll over and play dead when challenged. I've never been there and don't have plans to make a pilgrimage, and I have spent months in Gulf Arabia and loved the place. But there is a reason why the Gulf Arabs are not accepting Palestinian refugees. They really don't like, trust or feel any kinship with Levantine people. And they are certainly never going to open the gate to a million refugees. Resources are precious, and won't be squandered.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 20:56

Also, the Gulf Arabs are never going to embrace the Muslim Brotherhood/Iranian extremism or any version of Islamist theocracy. They have worked very hard to broker an accommodation. Based on money. Their view of their future is being a safe middle ground.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 20:58

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:47

The Egyptians also can't allow any one or anything in or out of Gaza without the permission of Israel.

The Egyptian state really does NOT want them in Egypt.

Hippyhippybake · 30/04/2024 21:00

In fact none of the world’s 50 majority Muslim countries seem to want them.

toomanyy · 30/04/2024 21:00

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 20:49

Genocide, in my understanding, is a systematic determination to destroy a group of people because of their race or religion. So the Nazi's intention to eliminate Jews was genocide. Six million were sent to the gas chambers in Germany and the territories it invaded/conquered during WW2. And Israel was borne from that.

Today Israel is a liberal democratic state, with rights for everyone (Black, white, lesbian etc who is willing to abide by the laws of Israel). But it is a state forged from struggle and not one that will roll over and play dead when challenged. I've never been there and don't have plans to make a pilgrimage, and I have spent months in Gulf Arabia and loved the place. But there is a reason why the Gulf Arabs are not accepting Palestinian refugees. They really don't like, trust or feel any kinship with Levantine people. And they are certainly never going to open the gate to a million refugees. Resources are precious, and won't be squandered.

Israel fully intends to take over Palestine. Netanyahu said ‘in the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea’.

To do that they have to eliminate all Palestinians, by genocide.

Your platitudes about democracy don’t change that.

toomanyy · 30/04/2024 21:03

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 20:58

The Egyptian state really does NOT want them in Egypt.

That does not justify genocide.

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