Page 30 | Islam groups calling for caliphate in Germany, aibu to be petrified?

Hippyhippybake · 30/04/2024 21:03

Really? They’d kill them all? Does that include the 20% of the Israeli population who are Arab?

toomanyy · 30/04/2024 21:05

Hippyhippybake · 30/04/2024 21:03

Really? They’d kill them all? Does that include the 20% of the Israeli population who are Arab?

If they’re Israeli then they’re not Palestinian, are they? Engage brain.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:06

@toomanyy Israel will accommodate Palestinians as citizens, if they accept israeli citizenship and lifestyle. Work and live alongside Jewish people.

toomanyy · 30/04/2024 21:07

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:06

@toomanyy Israel will accommodate Palestinians as citizens, if they accept israeli citizenship and lifestyle. Work and live alongside Jewish people.

No, they won’t. Don’t peddle lies.

And Palestinians deserve their own state.

Are you English? Would you like to be German instead?

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 21:07

We have travelled a long way from the demonstrations in Germany.

Does anyone feel threatened by it?

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:08

toomanyy · 30/04/2024 21:07

No, they won’t. Don’t peddle lies.

And Palestinians deserve their own state.

Are you English? Would you like to be German instead?

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They have done so for 50 years.

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 21:19

@toomanyy umm the majority of Arabs living in Israel would describe themselves as Palestinian.

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 21:23

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 20:33

I have read these documents. They state:

It alleges, in particular, the commission of the following acts with genocidal intent: killing, causing serious bodily and mental harm, inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group. According to South Africa, genocidal intent is evident from the way in which Israel’s military attack is being conducted, from the clear pattern of conduct of Israel in Gaza and from the statements made by Israeli officials in relation to the military operation in the Gaza Strip. The Applicant also contends that “[t]he intentional failure of the Government of Israel to condemn, prevent and punish such genocidal incitement constitutes in itself a grave violation of the Genocide Convention”. South Africa stresses that any stated intention by the Respondent to destroy Hamas does not preclude genocidal intent by Israel towards the whole or part of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

But I’m no clearer on what it is that Israel is actually doing that is different from what has happened in any other conflict, or how Israel’s actions in this conflict amount to genocide, and how those actions differ from those involved in other conflicts.

I get the impression that a case for genocide could be made for every and any conflict. Is the conflict in Syria a genocide? I see that there is a case for Ukraine. Is that a genocide too? I believe ISIS’ actions amount to genocide. Hamas’ actions are certainly genocidal.

Is all killing in conflict now considered genocide? If not, can someone please explain to me the difference?

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basically Genocide means that there us am effort to wipe out a people, in whole or in part. So, no not every conflict could be considered genocide. The ICJ found that there was a risk of genocide in Gaza.

Arguments for genocide in Gaza include aspects of the dehumanisation of the Palestinians by members of the Israeli government which can influence the way soldiers behave on the ground. The death rate of civilians due to the military tactics used, the extent to which the Israel authorities have destroyed infrastructure critical to life in Gaza - like the bakery’s, agricultural land, the hospitals. The humanitarian crisis- with 75% of Gazan’s displaced and not enough aid coming through, the conditions that have been created have the potential to kill many more.

otnot · 30/04/2024 21:24

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 30/04/2024 20:47

The Egyptians also can't allow any one or anything in or out of Gaza without the permission of Israel.

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Which is something they've agreed to whilst constructing a nice solid border to keep the palestinians in and everything else out, unless authorised by Israel. Gotta be honest, if Iran demanded France barricade us and prevent anything getting in or out without their permission, I'd be pretty pissed off with France if they complied. Probably rather more so than I would be with Iran actually - they're supposed to be our enemies and do shitty things, especially if we happened to be flinging missiles at them and calling for their destruction at the time. I'd be a lot more annoyed with a so-called ally betraying us. Weird how palestine and their supporters seem ok with it.

Polishedshoesalways · 30/04/2024 21:26

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 21:23

basically Genocide means that there us am effort to wipe out a people, in whole or in part. So, no not every conflict could be considered genocide. The ICJ found that there was a risk of genocide in Gaza.

Arguments for genocide in Gaza include aspects of the dehumanisation of the Palestinians by members of the Israeli government which can influence the way soldiers behave on the ground. The death rate of civilians due to the military tactics used, the extent to which the Israel authorities have destroyed infrastructure critical to life in Gaza - like the bakery’s, agricultural land, the hospitals. The humanitarian crisis- with 75% of Gazan’s displaced and not enough aid coming through, the conditions that have been created have the potential to kill many more.

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I don’t think we can ever lose sight of the terrible atrocities that have also happened to Israelis. You can not dismiss the pain and suffering and they were entirely innocent.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:29

I don't want to be German, because I am UK born. I speak French (quite well) some spanish and have Latin O level so can follow the gist of most European Romance language texts. I can read a menu in German but not a lot further. Trying to shade me as some kind of Nazi sympathizer.... ho ho ho.

And Gaza was their state. There were Gazan elections in 2008 (or there about), they elected Hamas, who spent the start up money on tunnels and guns, instead of schools and heallthcare or basic infrastructure. Worse still, they built armed fortifications under civilian infrastructure. Without any apology, HAMAS HAVE INVITED everything they are currently experiencing on their population. I am not suggesting Israel or Israelis are without blame. But it's currently going from bad to worse. Stupid, yes but hamas are being manipulated from Iran (anyone want to live there?)

I dream of going to Isfahan, and several other Persian/ Iranian historic cities but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 21:33

How have I dismissed anyone’s pain and suffering?

I am answering a question, in the briefest way possible, on why the Israeli’s government actions in Gaza were considered to be at risk of genocide.

Polishedshoesalways · 30/04/2024 21:35

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 21:33

How have I dismissed anyone’s pain and suffering?

I am answering a question, in the briefest way possible, on why the Israeli’s government actions in Gaza were considered to be at risk of genocide.

And yet not acknowledging the actual genocide that happened in Israel just a short time ago By Hamas - the official government of Gaza. They knew precisely what they were doing.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:40

Hamas have only prepared for their war against Israel since they were elected. I don't like or have to approve of any of their actions. Concern for ordinary Gazans... make me laugh, they haven't even dealt with food, power or water... Israel made certain those were delivered.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 21:51

Louloulouenna · 30/04/2024 12:48

I have long been puzzled how Islamic fundamentalism isn’t “far right”. It literally ticks every box.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 21:52

the question was why is Israel facing accusations of genocide and I answered that question.

Certainly Hamas have genocidal intent and the pain and suffering of their victims is unimaginable. I believe civilians should never be targeted in a conflict.

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:56

I'm not claiming an exhaustive knowledge of the rights and wrongs of 2000 years of history. But history tells us that Palestine has been contested, as the birthplace of three major religions, for 2000 years. Personally, because I am white, western and female, I actually prefer Israel to govern such a significant world site.

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 22:22

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:56

I'm not claiming an exhaustive knowledge of the rights and wrongs of 2000 years of history. But history tells us that Palestine has been contested, as the birthplace of three major religions, for 2000 years. Personally, because I am white, western and female, I actually prefer Israel to govern such a significant world site.

What are you on about?

Do you honestly think that as a white, western woman you are safer because Israel is killing civilians and committing war crimes in Gaza?

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 22:31

This reply has been deleted

This post has been withdrawn at the request of the user.

What I meant is that this sort of action is what fuels the reaction and causes people to swerve to the right, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum, but I think that you are aware of that. For instance, we understand that the rise of Nazism in Germany was, in part, fuelled by the punitive nature of the Treaty of Versailles.

If Germany was the only place that this was happening then I would understand your argument better, but it’s not. You just have to look at countries like Greece and Italy to see that, and specifically what is happening in Spain at the moment.

I was using the men in women’s prison etc as a demonstration of the little regard that the left have for women, and how deeply misogynistic it is, and also the fact that claiming that something is far right now has a very low bar. I think that you are aware of that also.

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 22:32

@mollyfolk would you feel safer if Hamas, backed by Iran, were in charge?

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 22:45

No I’m certainly not arguing for that.

Hamas is a homegrown Palestinian violent terrorist group that wishes to destroy Israel.
But is not ISIS . It’s not some global jihadi movement. Isreal like to say that it is but that’s not the case at all.

but to answer your question no but i don’t think that having Hamas in charge or Israel destroying Gaza are the only two options.

HRTQueen · 30/04/2024 23:19

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 10:58

What do you mean by “struggling with the idea of being accepting and progressive of all”? Western countries have been accepting, far too accepting. The grooming gangs in the UK got away with the rapes of hundred of girls directly because people were afraid to be called racist if these men were challenged.

If you come to a country legally and you integrate and accept the social norms and the laws and customs of that country then you are more than welcome by the majority of the people. What you don’t get to do is to impose your own social norms, customs and laws on that country, and neither do your descendants. You can criticise by all means, if there are crimes being carried out against you because of your race or religion then you are right to demand that the law protects you. What you absolutely do not get to do is to change the social norms, customs and laws of that country to suit you and neither do your descendants, not under any circumstances. If you see atrocities being committed then of course you are right to challenge that, but that’s a different thing.

If you come to a country illegally and then start demanding to impose your customs and laws, that are foreign to the country that you have entered illegally, then that is invasion not migration.

If you want to live under Sharia law then pick an Islamic country, there are many very beautiful Islamic countries, and live there. You cannot have two clashing systems of law in a country, and many Sharia laws breach the human rights laws of Western countries, particularly laws and rules concerning the appearance and behaviour of females. Female genital mutilation is a crime in this country for instance, and much of Sharia law also goes against the social norms and customs of Western countries. I know Muslims who came to the West specifically to escape the restrictions that living in an Islamic country imposed, the last thing they want is for Sharia Law to be imposed on them here.

That also goes for people from the West going to Islamic countries by the way. There are caveats though, if that country isn’t a democracy and the people of that country are being oppressed by a totalitarian regime like the Taliban, then that’s a different story.

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If you actively encourage immigration as it suits a countries needs you don’t get to pick and choose who will be good and who will cause potential issues this the right get all excited about

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 23:29

HRTQueen · 30/04/2024 23:19

If you actively encourage immigration as it suits a countries needs you don’t get to pick and choose who will be good and who will cause potential issues this the right get all excited about

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This is irrelevant to my point. If you immigrate to another country you are admitted on the premise that you will integrate and accept the culture of that country. You have absolutely no right to attempt to change that country to suit your own culture.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 30/04/2024 23:29

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 21:56

I'm not claiming an exhaustive knowledge of the rights and wrongs of 2000 years of history. But history tells us that Palestine has been contested, as the birthplace of three major religions, for 2000 years. Personally, because I am white, western and female, I actually prefer Israel to govern such a significant world site.

Just to clarify - Palestine is not the birthplace of the three major Abrahamic religions.

Islam is the newest - born about 1400 years ago in the 7th century in what is now Saudi Arabia.

Judaism was born about 3500 years ago on Mount Sinai which is in modern day Egypt.

Christianity, about 2000 years old, was born in what is modern day Israel and Palestine. It has been described as a messianic Jewish sect. Jesus Christ was both Jewish and seen by his followers as the Messiah. The Messiah is savior or redeemer of humanity in the Torah and Talmud (Jewish scripture). Christ is an anglicized form of ‘Khristos’ which is Greek for ‘Messiah’.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 30/04/2024 23:33

If you actively encourage immigration as it suits a countries needs you don’t get to pick and choose who will be good and who will cause potential issues this the right get all excited about

Tell that to Saudi Arabia. Or any Gulf (Arabic and Islamic) country. Immigrants will be jailed or deported or killed for any offenses that go against the country’s laws. This includes things as varied as criticizing the state religion, campaigning for free speech or equal rights, and even forming a work union.