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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 14:07

@Dineasair and @9021Pho If either of you ever feels inclined to stand for election, please let me know and I will join your party. I have rarely read so much well-informed common sense and balance on a MN current events thread. Brava to you both!

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 14:13

passthepenguin · 29/04/2024 20:05

Religion and race are two different things. It’s ok not to agree with a particular religion, it doesn’t make you racist.

"Religion and race are two different things".

*In your view". (And a somewhat tired Mumsnet trope).

When it comes to Islamaphobia, however, the UN'smdefinition of Islamaphobia states that Islamaphobia is a form of racism.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 14:17

Papyrophile · 30/04/2024 14:07

@Dineasair and @9021Pho If either of you ever feels inclined to stand for election, please let me know and I will join your party. I have rarely read so much well-informed common sense and balance on a MN current events thread. Brava to you both!

Thank you, but I’m of the view that politics in Itself is inherently corrupting due to the compromises you have to make. In the same way that a stone is worn away by water over time, principles are eroded with constant compromise. Anyway, I’m far too old for that malarkey lol.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 14:20

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 14:13

"Religion and race are two different things".

*In your view". (And a somewhat tired Mumsnet trope).

When it comes to Islamaphobia, however, the UN'smdefinition of Islamaphobia states that Islamaphobia is a form of racism.

the UN says a lot of things and the UN sometimes talks a load of vacuous rubbish, like the view that men are women just because they say so.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 14:26

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 09:19

Labelling women’s legitimate fears as hysterical is a tactic as old as time. Any woman should be alarmed at the rise of religious extremism, and shouting ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down debate is pathetic. Especially when it’s done by right-on white middle-aged women who live to virtue signal their luxury beliefs.

100% agree @WomensRightsRenegade

I’m appalled and embarrassed by the complacency and the condescension of some the the PPs on this thread. Someone else called it above, so much sneering at people’s legitimate and evidence-based concerns. It’s like Owen Jones is here 🤮

Im a social democrat and reasonably liberal but I’ve been alarmed at the fundamentalist fervour on the steers of London for the past six months - many of those of those marchers are completely hateful, advocating for the destruction of Israel. A fellow Liberal democracy and one that shares our values and freedoms.

But most chilling was the celebrations we saw on the streets of London, Manchester, Berlin and other western cities hours after the atrocities of October 7th made the headlines. What were these people celebrating exactly?! Let’s see

  • Murder
  • infanticide
  • Rape (children to grandmothers)
  • Sexual mutilation
  • Torture
  • Necrophilia

There was even a terrifying mob outside the Israeli embassy chanting the old genocidal slogan (“From the river….) on the Monday after the massacre BEFORE Israel had began its campaign in Gaza to recover the hostages and take out Hamas. No pause for reflection in terms of what it all meant, they just wanted to stick the boot in and revel in Israelis/ the Jewish community’s pain and suffering.

Be in no doubt, there are actually bigots amongst us with hate in their hearts that wish to do us harm. The really unfortunate thing is that there are extremely credulous westerners (some appear to be on this thread) that want to help them.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 14:33

parkrun500club · 29/04/2024 12:58

It's a sensible statement. Politics isn't a straight line from left to right, it's more of a circle, or at least a horseshoe.

Left wing extremists and right wing extremists usually have a lot in common.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 14:51

TempestTost · 30/04/2024 10:38

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on what is going on outside of the people you know.

My experience with Muslims in my area is most are good people with a strong sense of family and public service. They often tend to see themselves as being more similar to Christians, particularly Catholics, than very secularized people, and are comfortable in society with all kinds of people, albeit they tend to on the social conservative side.

That being said, I also see that there is some kind of radicalization going on in larger cities, there are people who don't seem to be here to integrate in a meaningful way. There have been cases of Muslims in some differernt western countries being involved in conflicts in their home countries.

Personally, I think it may be in large part a problem of numbers. A place can only really integrate so many newcomers at a given time, and they do need to have some motivation to do so. And they need to be able to expect to be able to get healthcare, jobs, etc, similar to the rest of the population, or you will get real resentments. Not all countries have western types of values, whether people are comfortable with that or not, and it is possible to import people who have no interest in them and in fact think they are bad.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

JudgeJ · 30/04/2024 14:58

Weallknowfrogsgo · 29/04/2024 22:28

It should as it’s the media outlet of the Christian right wing republicans in the US.

they’ve ran such news as the war on Christmas and Birmingham UK being a Muslim only area of the UK where whites aren’t allowed entry. So yes, anything they claim vaguely Muslim related should be taken with a bucket full of salt

I'm more than aware of Fox, being a devotee of the Daily Show for years! Why is that not on TV now by the way? I really miss it.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 15:41

Weightlosssideeffect · 29/04/2024 20:45

Anything past the centre is ‘far right’ nowadays 🙄

To be fair, tbe centre itself has shifted

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 15:53

Dibblydoodahdah · 29/04/2024 21:39

How does Sharia law view marital rape?

Hi Much tbe same as tbe UK did until 1991 (which thank goodness has changed)

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:08

Livelovebehappy · 29/04/2024 22:02

The post said nothing of the sort. Stop making things up to fit your own narrative. The poster was confirming what many are saying - Hamas are responsible for the current shit show. They refuse to free the Israeli hostages - presumably because most of them have been murdered already.

Or shot by Israeli army while bare chested and waving white flags. Or under the rubble.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:10

Livelovebehappy · 29/04/2024 22:02

The post said nothing of the sort. Stop making things up to fit your own narrative. The poster was confirming what many are saying - Hamas are responsible for the current shit show. They refuse to free the Israeli hostages - presumably because most of them have been murdered already.

As the Head of the UN said, October 7th did not happen in a vacuum.

And Indeed - very shockingly (to me) - Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) put the 7th October attack down solely to Netanyahu

Underthinker · 30/04/2024 17:13

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:08

Or shot by Israeli army while bare chested and waving white flags. Or under the rubble.

Are you suggesting that Hamas want to end the war and are keen to give back the hostages but can't because they were killed by Israelis?

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:14

Weallknowfrogsgo · 29/04/2024 22:10

you know in school when you learned about the holocaust and you thought to yourself ‘wow, I can’t believe people let that happen, like the world knew and did nothing about it, I could never’

i think, when our children’s children look back on 2024 they will say the exact shame thing and hang their heads in shame over the genocide of the Gazans and how the world sat by and watched and spoke of ‘both sides’ Never again means never again to anyone

Indeed, and those are the banners some of the Jewish marchers carry when protesting against genocide

toomuchfaff · 30/04/2024 17:14

Germany population 83m

According to your Fox news story 1100 people attended that rally.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:14

Underthinker · 30/04/2024 17:13

Are you suggesting that Hamas want to end the war and are keen to give back the hostages but can't because they were killed by Israelis?

Eh? Don't understand your point

SuziQuinto · 30/04/2024 17:16

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 15:53

Hi Much tbe same as tbe UK did until 1991 (which thank goodness has changed)

But without the stoning to death.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:18

SuziQuinto · 30/04/2024 17:16

But without the stoning to death.

I don't think being stoned to death is or has been a punishment for marital rape (the subject of my post) 🤷‍♀️

SuziQuinto · 30/04/2024 17:24

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:18

I don't think being stoned to death is or has been a punishment for marital rape (the subject of my post) 🤷‍♀️

Edited

My mistake, sorry! Shouldn't read several things at once.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:25

SometimesItMightBeNice · 30/04/2024 01:44

The guardian has written some really interesting pieces on the plight of Afghan women in the last couple of months. Sorry can't link, but if you're interested they're on there with a quick Google search. One point I did want to pick-up was your statement that the West is partly responsible for their plight. Can I ask why you say that? my over riding feeling is that when the West withdrew, the Afghans were left with the knowledge, skills, training and billions in funding to overthrow the Taliban but instead they put up zero resistance. Now the Afghan women are pleading for the wests interference again, whilst it's obvious that resistance and change must come from within.

Presumably because we funded the Taliban as a resistance force to the Soviet occupation?

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:25

SuziQuinto · 30/04/2024 17:24

My mistake, sorry! Shouldn't read several things at once.

Phew - wouldn't want anyone to think I'm condoning stoning to death for anything 🙂

SuziQuinto · 30/04/2024 17:29

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:25

Phew - wouldn't want anyone to think I'm condoning stoning to death for anything 🙂

😂sorry!

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:30

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 08:31

the women in Iran who are protesting the beatings, jailing and killing of women who reject the hijab have repeatedly asked the rest of the world to share their stories. So we do.

the women of Afghanistan don't have as much internet access as those in Iran i suspect, but i am very aware of RAWA and will amplify their voices as much as i can which is what they ask of us.

2 examples. Am i stepping in and speaking for them or am i amplifying their voices. If you are ok with what is happening to them, i suspect you think it may be the former. If you are listening to what they are saying, the latter. Your choice.

An African country (i want to say which one but shamefully can't remember, begins with G) has re-legalised FGM. Hibo Wardere is devastated and asking us to spread info about FGM. Is that speaking for them or amplifying their voices?

Frankly? When they ask, i will speak up, join marches, join boycotts. Because that is how they get heard. Not by saying "well, i'm not one of them, i'd better not say anything because I'll be accused of White Feminism" [capitals intended to show it is A Thing rather than just because i'm a feminist who happens to be white]

It's Gambia - ie the African country trying to (re)legalise FGM - it's still going through parliament, not yet in law AFAIK

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 17:38

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 11:28

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

But it’s not though is it? There is no statistical warrant to justify the claim that Israel is committing genocide.

Since October 7, the term “genocide” gets thrown around by people who demonstrate an astonishingly lack of intellectual engagement with the actual evidence.

To Israelis, Hamas’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of more than 1,400 people prove that Hamas is committed to its goals of making Palestine Judenrein through violent jihad and exterminating Jews.

On MN and on other social media accounts, on uni campuses and in the partisan halls of the UN, Israel’s response to Hamas’s orgy of death is self-evident genocide. This rhetoric is awash in certainty, even though factual analyses yield little evidence of actual genocide.

Mass killing by itself does not constitute genocide - World Wars I and II demonstrate the distinction. It is estimated that the number of World War I war-related deaths stands at 16-17 million, yet only the Ottoman murders of Armenians (1-1.5 million), Assyrians (750,000), and ethnic Greeks (348,000) were genocidal in that same war.

Currently some argue that large number of deaths in are proof of Israeli genocide. Recently Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) claimed that 33,137 Gazans had been killed in the war, while Israel maintains that more than 13,000 of those deaths were Hamas combatants. If we accept these unconfirmed figures, approximately 20,000 Gazan civilians have died.

To determine whether these deaths constitute genocide, compare the Gaza war to other modern wars: The percentages of Gazans killed (1.52%) and civilians killed out of the total population (0.92%) are all dramatically lower than their corresponding categories in other major wars. During World War I, 3.8% of all Russians died, while 8.57% of its civilians were killed. In World War II, 6.1% of German citizens died and 1.13% of German civilians were killed, while 10.5% of all Russians and 4.1% of Russian civilians were killed. In the Korean War, 12-15% of North Koreans were killed, while 10.2% of North Korean civilians died.

None of those campaigns were categorized as genocide since they reflect only the lethal nature of these wars. If those vastly more lethal campaigns were not genocide, it is difficult to see how the Israeli campaign in Gaza, with its immensely lower percentages of population and civilians killed, could qualify as genocide.

Another important indicator of genocide is the ratio of civilian casualties to enemy combatant deaths. If the intent is the destruction of a group, then civilians will represent a high casualty ratio relative to combatants. BUT, a low ratio of civilian-to-combatant deaths augurs for general lethality, not genocide.

In the non-genocidal campaigns of World War II, the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was approximately 2:1. In the Korean War, it was 3:1; in the Persian Gulf War, it was 9:1; and in the Iraq War, it was 2:1.

In today’s Gaza war, it is 20,000/13,000 or 1.54:1. The low 1.54:1 Gaza ratio is notable because the war is being fought in dense urban areas where civilians have little protection, while Hamas fighters are protected in underground tunnels.

Hamas has also cynically positioned its military assets in and under schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. They have perfected the method of deploying “the human shield”, fundamentally .

Still, it’s impossible to remain insensitive to the immense tragedy in Gaza. As you’ve pointed out, seeing dead children being pulled from the rubble is intolerable. And so is knowing that Kfir Bibas (1 year old) and his brother Ariel (4) are being held captive by murderous monsters. They are not the only ones.

Emotional recoil easily overcomes careful thinking. Meanwhile, there is great political value for some in describing Israel’s actions as genocide: it condemns Israel of the most heinous of crimes, thereby strengthening the radical argument to dismantle the Jewish state. And this radical argument is being pushed most vociferously by those who hate the West also, so be very wary of it.

You parroting this line without a solid understanding of international law or any tangible evidence (in other words, assumptions made on “just a feeling”) are emboldening the very people that want to dispose of liberal values entirely. That’s not a future I want, and I’m not sure it’s one you want either, if you’re being perfectly honest.

We CANNOT conflate genocide with the general hellishness of war, otherwise the term genocide losses unique descriptive and prescriptive meaning.

If the war in Gaza constitutes genocide, then so do World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and all conflicts with horrific lethality. This is problem because, for example, then Nazi extermination campaigns against Jews, Roma, ethnic Slavs etc. become no worse than any bloody war. The creates immense harm because genocide as a distinctive concept of extreme evil will have died, as will our conviction to prevent its recurrence.

Except that the International Court of Justice - led by a US judge - ruled that it was plausible Israel was committing genocide 🤷‍♀️

mollyfolk · 30/04/2024 17:43

Primroseoil · 29/04/2024 08:28

I do not want to live in a caliphate, what if that idea spreads over here & more protests take place.

Even if you take the Fox News source at face value, it was a protest organized by one extreme group against the demonisation of Islamic life in Germany: so not even everybody there would be an extremist. And one person was holding up a sign saying a caliphate was the solution.

I don’t think we are in any great danger yet!

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