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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
Weallknowfrogsgo · 30/04/2024 11:59

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 08:31

the women in Iran who are protesting the beatings, jailing and killing of women who reject the hijab have repeatedly asked the rest of the world to share their stories. So we do.

the women of Afghanistan don't have as much internet access as those in Iran i suspect, but i am very aware of RAWA and will amplify their voices as much as i can which is what they ask of us.

2 examples. Am i stepping in and speaking for them or am i amplifying their voices. If you are ok with what is happening to them, i suspect you think it may be the former. If you are listening to what they are saying, the latter. Your choice.

An African country (i want to say which one but shamefully can't remember, begins with G) has re-legalised FGM. Hibo Wardere is devastated and asking us to spread info about FGM. Is that speaking for them or amplifying their voices?

Frankly? When they ask, i will speak up, join marches, join boycotts. Because that is how they get heard. Not by saying "well, i'm not one of them, i'd better not say anything because I'll be accused of White Feminism" [capitals intended to show it is A Thing rather than just because i'm a feminist who happens to be white]

Yes sure for Gambia, Afghanistan and iran sure amplify away. Great. But it becomes problematic when you paint then with a broad brush and speak for ALL Muslim women. Saying they are constrained by Islamic law, which is the post I was actually talking about.

making it seem like I’m all in favour for silence whilst my sisters suffer is a straw man. But a Muslim woman in the UAE has a very different lived experience to a Muslim woman in Bosnia or Turkey and again to Afghanistan or iran.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:00

This reply has been deleted

This post has been withdrawn at the request of the user.

Good grief! The whole reason that the so called “ far right” is rising is that the reaction is directly caused by things like this, it’s a response. Anyone who disagrees with anything the extreme left wants is being called “far right” by the way, just so you know.

I have held socialist and humanitarian principles my entire life but have recently been lumped in with the “far right” because I don’t want men in women’s hospital wards and prisons. Tolerance has a limit, anyone who tolerates things that cause others harm is a callous fool, and when the idea of “kindness” is used to coerce and compel and to force any belief system on other people it is in actual fact not kindness at all but cruelty.

Before anyone starts, imprisoning the male sex with the female sex is considered an atrocity during war, it is in fact a recognised war crime under the Geneva Convention, unfortunately the Geneva Convention doesn’t operate during peacetime and that’s how they get away with it.

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 12:12

hotpotlover · 29/04/2024 06:21

I'm German. I'm more worried about the rise of the far right in Germany.

Is Islamic fundamentalism and calling for a caliphate not also far right?

Or is that the okay kind of far right, and it’s the other far right that’s bad?

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 12:13

Weallknowfrogsgo · 30/04/2024 11:59

Yes sure for Gambia, Afghanistan and iran sure amplify away. Great. But it becomes problematic when you paint then with a broad brush and speak for ALL Muslim women. Saying they are constrained by Islamic law, which is the post I was actually talking about.

making it seem like I’m all in favour for silence whilst my sisters suffer is a straw man. But a Muslim woman in the UAE has a very different lived experience to a Muslim woman in Bosnia or Turkey and again to Afghanistan or iran.

Look, you do you. But don't you dare try to silence someone who has spent the last 50 years speaking up for women like me, and amplifying the voices of women who ask us to do that.

I haven't painted anyone with a broad brush, that is in your head. And i haven't said anything about what you do to amply the voices of your sisters. I simply have no influence on that: you do you.

The experiences of women in a variety of countries (predominently muslim or not) is naturally different. It is interesting that despite me having asked on 2 separate threads nobody will tell me (and i could google but will i get the right answer? no idea) if the word of a woman carries the same weight as that of a man under sharia law.

Women in Saudi Arabia have been recently allowed to drive, although they were allowed in universities already. Their reality is very different to those women in Afghanistan. The women in Saudi Arabia didn't ask us to amplify their voices: so i left them to it.

honestly the constant need to try to needle and pick holes is tiresome. I will ALWAYS put girls and women first. Always.

ToWhitToWhoo · 30/04/2024 12:26

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 12:12

Is Islamic fundamentalism and calling for a caliphate not also far right?

Or is that the okay kind of far right, and it’s the other far right that’s bad?

There is no such thing as an 'okay far right' and YES, the hardline Islamists are also far right.

EasternStandard · 30/04/2024 12:28

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 12:13

Look, you do you. But don't you dare try to silence someone who has spent the last 50 years speaking up for women like me, and amplifying the voices of women who ask us to do that.

I haven't painted anyone with a broad brush, that is in your head. And i haven't said anything about what you do to amply the voices of your sisters. I simply have no influence on that: you do you.

The experiences of women in a variety of countries (predominently muslim or not) is naturally different. It is interesting that despite me having asked on 2 separate threads nobody will tell me (and i could google but will i get the right answer? no idea) if the word of a woman carries the same weight as that of a man under sharia law.

Women in Saudi Arabia have been recently allowed to drive, although they were allowed in universities already. Their reality is very different to those women in Afghanistan. The women in Saudi Arabia didn't ask us to amplify their voices: so i left them to it.

honestly the constant need to try to needle and pick holes is tiresome. I will ALWAYS put girls and women first. Always.

Same

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:29

Illstartexercisingtomorrow · 29/04/2024 20:43

Yes I agree with you. Everyone who has their own belief system or way of life should adapt and do their own thing without impacting others.

I was responding to pp who said she didn’t want society to evolve to reflect who actually makes up that society. Which i fundamentally think is a disgusting attitude.

When people accept others moving to their country it is done on the understanding that those people accept and abide by the social norms, customs and laws of that country. That is called integration and is expected of anyone wishing to join another society.
It is absolutely unacceptable to attempt to change or “evolve” that after being accepted into someone else’s country, full stop, end of story. It doesn’t matter if it’s the incomer or their descendants that are attempting the introduction of ways that are foreign to the adopted country and that’s what people forget.

When the bones of someone’s ancestors rest under the soil of their country, particularly when there are many generations, thousands of years of established customs, laws and social norms involved, then you can expect them to fight back anyone trying to change that to suit them, especially when the changes that are being pushed for are totally contrary and clash with the ways of the adopted country.

Much of the Common Law of the UK goes back many hundreds of years to the Magna Carta, I expect that it is similar in many other Western countries too.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:40

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 08:59

It enrages me how women in these countries are largely ignored by the west and the left in particular.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:42

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 09:24

@9021Pho Brava!

Also interesting that people have no problem speaking out (rightly) on behalf of the women and children in Gaza but the women in Iran? Not so much.

But of course it’s Islam, not Israel that is the problem in Iran.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:43

EasternStandard · 30/04/2024 12:28

Same

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Weallknowfrogsgo · 30/04/2024 12:47

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 12:42

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

The fact that you are applauding the statement that it is Islam that is the problem shows me all i need to know about your ‘feminism’ thanks! Now I don’t have to waste time responding to your feigned concern for Muslim women

Louloulouenna · 30/04/2024 12:48

I have long been puzzled how Islamic fundamentalism isn’t “far right”. It literally ticks every box.

otnot · 30/04/2024 12:51

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 11:28

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

But it’s not though is it? There is no statistical warrant to justify the claim that Israel is committing genocide.

Since October 7, the term “genocide” gets thrown around by people who demonstrate an astonishingly lack of intellectual engagement with the actual evidence.

To Israelis, Hamas’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of more than 1,400 people prove that Hamas is committed to its goals of making Palestine Judenrein through violent jihad and exterminating Jews.

On MN and on other social media accounts, on uni campuses and in the partisan halls of the UN, Israel’s response to Hamas’s orgy of death is self-evident genocide. This rhetoric is awash in certainty, even though factual analyses yield little evidence of actual genocide.

Mass killing by itself does not constitute genocide - World Wars I and II demonstrate the distinction. It is estimated that the number of World War I war-related deaths stands at 16-17 million, yet only the Ottoman murders of Armenians (1-1.5 million), Assyrians (750,000), and ethnic Greeks (348,000) were genocidal in that same war.

Currently some argue that large number of deaths in are proof of Israeli genocide. Recently Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) claimed that 33,137 Gazans had been killed in the war, while Israel maintains that more than 13,000 of those deaths were Hamas combatants. If we accept these unconfirmed figures, approximately 20,000 Gazan civilians have died.

To determine whether these deaths constitute genocide, compare the Gaza war to other modern wars: The percentages of Gazans killed (1.52%) and civilians killed out of the total population (0.92%) are all dramatically lower than their corresponding categories in other major wars. During World War I, 3.8% of all Russians died, while 8.57% of its civilians were killed. In World War II, 6.1% of German citizens died and 1.13% of German civilians were killed, while 10.5% of all Russians and 4.1% of Russian civilians were killed. In the Korean War, 12-15% of North Koreans were killed, while 10.2% of North Korean civilians died.

None of those campaigns were categorized as genocide since they reflect only the lethal nature of these wars. If those vastly more lethal campaigns were not genocide, it is difficult to see how the Israeli campaign in Gaza, with its immensely lower percentages of population and civilians killed, could qualify as genocide.

Another important indicator of genocide is the ratio of civilian casualties to enemy combatant deaths. If the intent is the destruction of a group, then civilians will represent a high casualty ratio relative to combatants. BUT, a low ratio of civilian-to-combatant deaths augurs for general lethality, not genocide.

In the non-genocidal campaigns of World War II, the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was approximately 2:1. In the Korean War, it was 3:1; in the Persian Gulf War, it was 9:1; and in the Iraq War, it was 2:1.

In today’s Gaza war, it is 20,000/13,000 or 1.54:1. The low 1.54:1 Gaza ratio is notable because the war is being fought in dense urban areas where civilians have little protection, while Hamas fighters are protected in underground tunnels.

Hamas has also cynically positioned its military assets in and under schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. They have perfected the method of deploying “the human shield”, fundamentally .

Still, it’s impossible to remain insensitive to the immense tragedy in Gaza. As you’ve pointed out, seeing dead children being pulled from the rubble is intolerable. And so is knowing that Kfir Bibas (1 year old) and his brother Ariel (4) are being held captive by murderous monsters. They are not the only ones.

Emotional recoil easily overcomes careful thinking. Meanwhile, there is great political value for some in describing Israel’s actions as genocide: it condemns Israel of the most heinous of crimes, thereby strengthening the radical argument to dismantle the Jewish state. And this radical argument is being pushed most vociferously by those who hate the West also, so be very wary of it.

You parroting this line without a solid understanding of international law or any tangible evidence (in other words, assumptions made on “just a feeling”) are emboldening the very people that want to dispose of liberal values entirely. That’s not a future I want, and I’m not sure it’s one you want either, if you’re being perfectly honest.

We CANNOT conflate genocide with the general hellishness of war, otherwise the term genocide losses unique descriptive and prescriptive meaning.

If the war in Gaza constitutes genocide, then so do World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and all conflicts with horrific lethality. This is problem because, for example, then Nazi extermination campaigns against Jews, Roma, ethnic Slavs etc. become no worse than any bloody war. The creates immense harm because genocide as a distinctive concept of extreme evil will have died, as will our conviction to prevent its recurrence.

Superb post, a shame the poster didn't feel able to engage in an open discussion. Hopefully they will stop using the term genocide at least; I don't think using such charged language is helping the palestinian cause at all, it just makes it sound like their supporters don't have any interest in facts and are relying on nonsense and propaganda, which then makes one wonder how much you can trust about any claims they make. I also suspect it is to try to relate the current situation to the holocaust, which is of course deeply offensive. I think it should be called out more often than it is, not least by the government and media. So thank you for this.

Whaleway · 30/04/2024 12:52

The fact that you are applauding the statement that it is Islam that is the problem shows me all i need to know about your ‘feminism’ thanks!

Such as? I can't see why they would be contradictory even if you disagree

WhatThenEh · 30/04/2024 13:03

This reply has been deleted

This post has been withdrawn at the request of the user.

Vivi0 · 30/04/2024 13:08

Louloulouenna · 30/04/2024 12:48

I have long been puzzled how Islamic fundamentalism isn’t “far right”. It literally ticks every box.

I always see people on Mumsnet saying that they are “concerned about the far right”, but it is never this kind of far right that they seem to be concerned about.

I don’t understand why, though. Men marching through the streets of the U.K. with Swastika’s and calling for jihad is infinitely more concerning to me than some
drunk, overweight fools waving St George’s flags.

Lyla82 · 30/04/2024 13:16

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 11:28

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

But it’s not though is it? There is no statistical warrant to justify the claim that Israel is committing genocide.

Since October 7, the term “genocide” gets thrown around by people who demonstrate an astonishingly lack of intellectual engagement with the actual evidence.

To Israelis, Hamas’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of more than 1,400 people prove that Hamas is committed to its goals of making Palestine Judenrein through violent jihad and exterminating Jews.

On MN and on other social media accounts, on uni campuses and in the partisan halls of the UN, Israel’s response to Hamas’s orgy of death is self-evident genocide. This rhetoric is awash in certainty, even though factual analyses yield little evidence of actual genocide.

Mass killing by itself does not constitute genocide - World Wars I and II demonstrate the distinction. It is estimated that the number of World War I war-related deaths stands at 16-17 million, yet only the Ottoman murders of Armenians (1-1.5 million), Assyrians (750,000), and ethnic Greeks (348,000) were genocidal in that same war.

Currently some argue that large number of deaths in are proof of Israeli genocide. Recently Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) claimed that 33,137 Gazans had been killed in the war, while Israel maintains that more than 13,000 of those deaths were Hamas combatants. If we accept these unconfirmed figures, approximately 20,000 Gazan civilians have died.

To determine whether these deaths constitute genocide, compare the Gaza war to other modern wars: The percentages of Gazans killed (1.52%) and civilians killed out of the total population (0.92%) are all dramatically lower than their corresponding categories in other major wars. During World War I, 3.8% of all Russians died, while 8.57% of its civilians were killed. In World War II, 6.1% of German citizens died and 1.13% of German civilians were killed, while 10.5% of all Russians and 4.1% of Russian civilians were killed. In the Korean War, 12-15% of North Koreans were killed, while 10.2% of North Korean civilians died.

None of those campaigns were categorized as genocide since they reflect only the lethal nature of these wars. If those vastly more lethal campaigns were not genocide, it is difficult to see how the Israeli campaign in Gaza, with its immensely lower percentages of population and civilians killed, could qualify as genocide.

Another important indicator of genocide is the ratio of civilian casualties to enemy combatant deaths. If the intent is the destruction of a group, then civilians will represent a high casualty ratio relative to combatants. BUT, a low ratio of civilian-to-combatant deaths augurs for general lethality, not genocide.

In the non-genocidal campaigns of World War II, the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was approximately 2:1. In the Korean War, it was 3:1; in the Persian Gulf War, it was 9:1; and in the Iraq War, it was 2:1.

In today’s Gaza war, it is 20,000/13,000 or 1.54:1. The low 1.54:1 Gaza ratio is notable because the war is being fought in dense urban areas where civilians have little protection, while Hamas fighters are protected in underground tunnels.

Hamas has also cynically positioned its military assets in and under schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. They have perfected the method of deploying “the human shield”, fundamentally .

Still, it’s impossible to remain insensitive to the immense tragedy in Gaza. As you’ve pointed out, seeing dead children being pulled from the rubble is intolerable. And so is knowing that Kfir Bibas (1 year old) and his brother Ariel (4) are being held captive by murderous monsters. They are not the only ones.

Emotional recoil easily overcomes careful thinking. Meanwhile, there is great political value for some in describing Israel’s actions as genocide: it condemns Israel of the most heinous of crimes, thereby strengthening the radical argument to dismantle the Jewish state. And this radical argument is being pushed most vociferously by those who hate the West also, so be very wary of it.

You parroting this line without a solid understanding of international law or any tangible evidence (in other words, assumptions made on “just a feeling”) are emboldening the very people that want to dispose of liberal values entirely. That’s not a future I want, and I’m not sure it’s one you want either, if you’re being perfectly honest.

We CANNOT conflate genocide with the general hellishness of war, otherwise the term genocide losses unique descriptive and prescriptive meaning.

If the war in Gaza constitutes genocide, then so do World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and all conflicts with horrific lethality. This is problem because, for example, then Nazi extermination campaigns against Jews, Roma, ethnic Slavs etc. become no worse than any bloody war. The creates immense harm because genocide as a distinctive concept of extreme evil will have died, as will our conviction to prevent its recurrence.

Eloquently written 👏🏻

Hippyhippybake · 30/04/2024 13:20

@9021Pho bloody hell, hats off to you! Brilliant
analysis.

mrsdineen2 · 30/04/2024 13:26

Hippyhippybake · 30/04/2024 13:20

@9021Pho bloody hell, hats off to you! Brilliant
analysis.

I enjoy a thorough mathematical analysis as much as the next person, but the entire piece is underpinned by the very very shaky assumption that Israel are accurate in their identification and definition of Hamas members.

Either they deliberately targeted World Central Kitchen workers knowing they were innocents, or they do not reliably identify their targets. One of those must be true.

WhatsTheProblemSarah · 30/04/2024 13:31

Germany seems to face more issues than us tbf. Remember the 1200 sexual assaults on NYE a few years back? I'd forgotten about that until being reminded in the other thread. Then perpetrators seemed to be mostly young Muslim males.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 13:31

PinkTonic · 29/04/2024 18:46

Quite and this one shouldn’t have got legal aid either. I wonder why it did 🤔

Because it centred around fundamental human rights (freedom to manifest religious beliefs) and the limits around that and was certified to be in the public interest for the case to proceed. Whilst fact specific, the case provides some helpful clarification on the limits on the freedom to manifest religious beliefs

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 13:38

FactChecking · 29/04/2024 19:06

I think you’ll find it’s Christians.

  • Around 365 million Christians are subject to “high levels of persecution and discrimination”. This compared to 340 million in 2021 (PDF).
  • 1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide, including 1 in 5 in Africa and 1 in 7 in Asia. This compared to 1 in 8 worldwide in 2021 (PDF).
  • 4,998 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. 90% of those killed were in Nigeria, where attacks on Christians have become more common since 2020 as part of a wider rise in political violence against civilians. Open Doors estimates the number of Christians killed for faith-related reasons worldwide was 5,621 in 2023, 5,898 in 2022, and 4,761 in 2021.
  • 14,766 Churches and Christian properties were attacked.
  • North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, and Yemen had the highest rates of reported persecution against Christians.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2024-0017/#:~:text=The%20report%20for%202023%20said,1%20in%207%20in%20Asia.

…Afghanistan took over the top spot from North Korea this year. Open Doors explains that it long was “impossible to live openly as a Christian in Afghanistan. Leaving Islam is considered shameful, and Christian converts face dire consequences if their new faith is discovered. Either they have to flee the country or they will be killed.”

https://www.cato.org/commentary/christianity-worlds-most-persecuted-religion-confirms-new-report

I'm not sure the sources you quote necessarily support your assertion.

The first item (parliamentary) relates solely to persecution of Christians, it provides no comparators as against other religions).

The second item against focuses solely on Christian persecution and is a religious organisation dedicated to persecution of Christians

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 13:45

mrsdineen2 · 29/04/2024 19:21

Interesting choice of thread for a new poster

By definition, a new poster is new and has to to start posting on a thread. Would it make you feel better if they'd had their first post on a baby na e thread or one about face cream? 😒

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 13:59

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 08:59

It enrages me how women in these countries are largely ignored by the west and the left in particular.

Well said Teddleshon 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 The left, particularly the middle class virtue signalling their luxury beliefs, are ignoring the atrocities committed against women in the West, never mind in other areas of the world. The vacuous stupidity, craven cowardice and cruelty of the left has been a shocking and heartbreaking revelation.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 30/04/2024 14:04

MotherofGorgons · 29/04/2024 19:48

I am sure they do. This isnt a Muslim country. Please feel free to insult my religion as much as you want and I shall insult yours. As it should be.

As it should be

Well, yes and no.

There is legislation against stirring up religious hatred: "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening... if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred".

Additionally, legislation provides that manifesting religious hatred may be an aggravating factor on sentencing for other crimes.

i agree with that legislation