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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 08:59

It enrages me how women in these countries are largely ignored by the west and the left in particular.

mrsdineen2 · 30/04/2024 09:10

swimsong · 30/04/2024 00:48

The point is selective reporting and promoting news stories just to fit their agenda. In contrast to 1100 people demonstrating, hundreds of thousands have recently been on the streets of Germany protesting about the rise of the far right Alternative for Germany party - has Fox News covered that much larger story?

I don't doubt for a second they have an agenda in what they choose to report on, and they are not even on my radar for getting my daily news.

But if they do report something verifiably happened, and that multiple third party sources also confirm, I really fail to see how them reporting it undermines the story?

The protest happened. The placards were waved. The speaker spoke.

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 09:19

Labelling women’s legitimate fears as hysterical is a tactic as old as time. Any woman should be alarmed at the rise of religious extremism, and shouting ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down debate is pathetic. Especially when it’s done by right-on white middle-aged women who live to virtue signal their luxury beliefs.

100% agree @WomensRightsRenegade

I’m appalled and embarrassed by the complacency and the condescension of some the the PPs on this thread. Someone else called it above, so much sneering at people’s legitimate and evidence-based concerns. It’s like Owen Jones is here 🤮

Im a social democrat and reasonably liberal but I’ve been alarmed at the fundamentalist fervour on the steers of London for the past six months - many of those of those marchers are completely hateful, advocating for the destruction of Israel. A fellow Liberal democracy and one that shares our values and freedoms.

But most chilling was the celebrations we saw on the streets of London, Manchester, Berlin and other western cities hours after the atrocities of October 7th made the headlines. What were these people celebrating exactly?! Let’s see

  • Murder
  • infanticide
  • Rape (children to grandmothers)
  • Sexual mutilation
  • Torture
  • Necrophilia

There was even a terrifying mob outside the Israeli embassy chanting the old genocidal slogan (“From the river….) on the Monday after the massacre BEFORE Israel had began its campaign in Gaza to recover the hostages and take out Hamas. No pause for reflection in terms of what it all meant, they just wanted to stick the boot in and revel in Israelis/ the Jewish community’s pain and suffering.

Be in no doubt, there are actually bigots amongst us with hate in their hearts that wish to do us harm. The really unfortunate thing is that there are extremely credulous westerners (some appear to be on this thread) that want to help them.

Teddleshon · 30/04/2024 09:24

@9021Pho Brava!

Also interesting that people have no problem speaking out (rightly) on behalf of the women and children in Gaza but the women in Iran? Not so much.

But of course it’s Islam, not Israel that is the problem in Iran.

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 09:27

BMW6 · 29/04/2024 03:42

YABU because it is not going to happen is it.

The sign might as well say "End All Wars"

The sign might as well say "End All Wars"

But it doesn’t though, it says “Caliphate is the solution”

DifficultBloodyWoman · 30/04/2024 09:31

There was even a terrifying mob outside the Israeli embassy chanting the old genocidal slogan (“From the river….) on the Monday after the massacre BEFORE Israel had began its campaign in Gaza to recover the hostages and take out Hamas. No pause for reflection in terms of what it all meant, they just wanted to stick the boot in and revel in Israelis/ the Jewish community’s pain and suffering.

I wasn’t aware of that. But it sadly doesn’t surprise me.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said about the complacency and condescension on this thread

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 09:46

Weallknowfrogsgo · 29/04/2024 23:41

But do you not see a problem with speaking for them?

This is too stupid, so we just ignore their suffering? Oh how very convenient for those causing it.

WickedSerious · 30/04/2024 09:47

JudgeJ · 29/04/2024 22:26

Other news outlets are available but don't feed the rabid agenda, is Fox news replacing Daily Mail as the chosen organ for MN's disapproval? God forbid if the sainted Grauniad carries the story, some people on here won't be able to cope and need lots of counselling

Fainting couch manufacturers would be laughing all the way to the bank.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 09:48

Dibblydoodahdah · 29/04/2024 21:39

How does Sharia law view marital rape?

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 09:49

Livelovebehappy · 29/04/2024 21:46

I actually find it more disturbing and scarey that people on here are championing Sharia Law. It’s a vile law, and has no place in civilised society.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Lottie2shoes · 30/04/2024 10:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Lottie2shoes · 30/04/2024 10:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Underthinker · 30/04/2024 10:17

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

I feel like I've seen it mentioned once or twice on here.

Lottie2shoes · 30/04/2024 10:18

@Underthinker I meant the people with the power to stop it. They seem to brush everything under the rug with fake promises but nothing ever gets done.

TempestTost · 30/04/2024 10:38

Lottie2shoes · 29/04/2024 09:32

As a Muslim, I did wonder whether to write a post or not as I know I will get flamed etc.
But just wanted to put out there another opinion as I've read alot on this thread about separation and how all Muslims want caliphate etc.
The majority of Muslims I know, including my family just want to live normal peaceful lives. Being able to follow our faith but not affect anyone else.

I pray in my own home, eat halal food etc, wear a hijab but I would never expect others whether they are Muslim or not to do the same. All the Muslims I know are also like this.
I funnily enough, also like interactions with non Muslims and chat on a weekly if not daily basis with people of all different faiths. I have no problems with them.
But as a Muslim, when I hear people talk of no go areas, the whole rhetoric of separate lives and how Muslims wish to take over the world.... people then coming on and saying islamophobic stuff, it does make me be wary of talking to new people wondering if the majority of people feel the same. Then it's a catch 22 because then I do stick to the people I know (ie people similar to me) which probably creates the no go areas۔

People hearing about the other "sides" hatred with inflammatory posts like we are scared of the Muslims and they all "West " hating people etc۔ (and vice versa)
This is actually what had divided us and separated us and then we hear all about the segregation, not realising our actions have caused that.
I grew up with Muslims and non Muslims and never had any issues at all. They were respectful of us, just as we were respectful of their values. Its just this last 10/20 years or so, its become more of an issue.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on what is going on outside of the people you know.

My experience with Muslims in my area is most are good people with a strong sense of family and public service. They often tend to see themselves as being more similar to Christians, particularly Catholics, than very secularized people, and are comfortable in society with all kinds of people, albeit they tend to on the social conservative side.

That being said, I also see that there is some kind of radicalization going on in larger cities, there are people who don't seem to be here to integrate in a meaningful way. There have been cases of Muslims in some differernt western countries being involved in conflicts in their home countries.

Personally, I think it may be in large part a problem of numbers. A place can only really integrate so many newcomers at a given time, and they do need to have some motivation to do so. And they need to be able to expect to be able to get healthcare, jobs, etc, similar to the rest of the population, or you will get real resentments. Not all countries have western types of values, whether people are comfortable with that or not, and it is possible to import people who have no interest in them and in fact think they are bad.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 30/04/2024 10:49

Weallknowfrogsgo · 29/04/2024 22:47

but that’s Afghanistan, the comment I replied to was saying it’s bad for women is most Islamic countries despite what they might tell us…what’s Happening in Afghanistan aside from being a direct consequence of repeated western intervention is unique to Afghanistan and you can’t say because women in Afghanistan are oppressed all muslim women in Muslim majority countries are

Yes unique to Afghanistan and Syria and Iran and Saudi and Yemen and Chad and Somalia and Iraq and Sudan and Sierra Leone and Pakistan and so on. A pretty culturally diverse set of countries with one common theme between them...their religion.

But that is not specific to Islam. Christian majority DRC, CAR and South Sudan are all incredibly unsafe for women and you can see the slippery slop some of the more 'religious' states in the 'land of the free' are on just now too.

Essentially everytime the grubby little claws of religion latch onto power women will suffer. So it is, so it was, so it shall be (until we rid ourselves of the scourge of organised religion).

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 10:58

HRTQueen · 29/04/2024 21:53

It seems many countries are struggling with the idea of being accepting and progressive of all but does that include being accepting of religious choices that are not progressive to western ideals

It’s something Europe is struggling with along with the rise of the far right

we are going to see this more and more and the extreme kick back

yes it’s concerning

What do you mean by “struggling with the idea of being accepting and progressive of all”? Western countries have been accepting, far too accepting. The grooming gangs in the UK got away with the rapes of hundred of girls directly because people were afraid to be called racist if these men were challenged.

If you come to a country legally and you integrate and accept the social norms and the laws and customs of that country then you are more than welcome by the majority of the people. What you don’t get to do is to impose your own social norms, customs and laws on that country, and neither do your descendants. You can criticise by all means, if there are crimes being carried out against you because of your race or religion then you are right to demand that the law protects you. What you absolutely do not get to do is to change the social norms, customs and laws of that country to suit you and neither do your descendants, not under any circumstances. If you see atrocities being committed then of course you are right to challenge that, but that’s a different thing.

If you come to a country illegally and then start demanding to impose your customs and laws, that are foreign to the country that you have entered illegally, then that is invasion not migration.

If you want to live under Sharia law then pick an Islamic country, there are many very beautiful Islamic countries, and live there. You cannot have two clashing systems of law in a country, and many Sharia laws breach the human rights laws of Western countries, particularly laws and rules concerning the appearance and behaviour of females. Female genital mutilation is a crime in this country for instance, and much of Sharia law also goes against the social norms and customs of Western countries. I know Muslims who came to the West specifically to escape the restrictions that living in an Islamic country imposed, the last thing they want is for Sharia Law to be imposed on them here.

That also goes for people from the West going to Islamic countries by the way. There are caveats though, if that country isn’t a democracy and the people of that country are being oppressed by a totalitarian regime like the Taliban, then that’s a different story.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 11:03

Thevelvelletes · 30/04/2024 04:53

The morality police run by men for men=female suffering.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 11:26

Remember the 70/80s with high youth unemployment and the dawning realisation that girls were just as good at school as boys, given the right teaching methods and environments? and there was a cohort of young men with what they saw as no future, no job, and no girlfriend because they were all off at uni making eyes at "posh lads"? and the rise of things like the National Front?
Is there something similar happening amongst young people who, as the Germans put it, have a "migration background" (could be 2nd gen, even)? Is that what this is? or is it something else?

Because it seems to me that in hard times, cost of living crisis, climate crisis, wars springing up everywhere and an apparent sudden rush to the right in many western democracies, there are often reactions, and people bunch together with people they see as the same as them.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 11:27

Brefugee · 30/04/2024 08:31

the women in Iran who are protesting the beatings, jailing and killing of women who reject the hijab have repeatedly asked the rest of the world to share their stories. So we do.

the women of Afghanistan don't have as much internet access as those in Iran i suspect, but i am very aware of RAWA and will amplify their voices as much as i can which is what they ask of us.

2 examples. Am i stepping in and speaking for them or am i amplifying their voices. If you are ok with what is happening to them, i suspect you think it may be the former. If you are listening to what they are saying, the latter. Your choice.

An African country (i want to say which one but shamefully can't remember, begins with G) has re-legalised FGM. Hibo Wardere is devastated and asking us to spread info about FGM. Is that speaking for them or amplifying their voices?

Frankly? When they ask, i will speak up, join marches, join boycotts. Because that is how they get heard. Not by saying "well, i'm not one of them, i'd better not say anything because I'll be accused of White Feminism" [capitals intended to show it is A Thing rather than just because i'm a feminist who happens to be white]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

9021Pho · 30/04/2024 11:28

@Lottie2shoes It is ongoing genocide with no one saying anything.

But it’s not though is it? There is no statistical warrant to justify the claim that Israel is committing genocide.

Since October 7, the term “genocide” gets thrown around by people who demonstrate an astonishingly lack of intellectual engagement with the actual evidence.

To Israelis, Hamas’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of more than 1,400 people prove that Hamas is committed to its goals of making Palestine Judenrein through violent jihad and exterminating Jews.

On MN and on other social media accounts, on uni campuses and in the partisan halls of the UN, Israel’s response to Hamas’s orgy of death is self-evident genocide. This rhetoric is awash in certainty, even though factual analyses yield little evidence of actual genocide.

Mass killing by itself does not constitute genocide - World Wars I and II demonstrate the distinction. It is estimated that the number of World War I war-related deaths stands at 16-17 million, yet only the Ottoman murders of Armenians (1-1.5 million), Assyrians (750,000), and ethnic Greeks (348,000) were genocidal in that same war.

Currently some argue that large number of deaths in are proof of Israeli genocide. Recently Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) claimed that 33,137 Gazans had been killed in the war, while Israel maintains that more than 13,000 of those deaths were Hamas combatants. If we accept these unconfirmed figures, approximately 20,000 Gazan civilians have died.

To determine whether these deaths constitute genocide, compare the Gaza war to other modern wars: The percentages of Gazans killed (1.52%) and civilians killed out of the total population (0.92%) are all dramatically lower than their corresponding categories in other major wars. During World War I, 3.8% of all Russians died, while 8.57% of its civilians were killed. In World War II, 6.1% of German citizens died and 1.13% of German civilians were killed, while 10.5% of all Russians and 4.1% of Russian civilians were killed. In the Korean War, 12-15% of North Koreans were killed, while 10.2% of North Korean civilians died.

None of those campaigns were categorized as genocide since they reflect only the lethal nature of these wars. If those vastly more lethal campaigns were not genocide, it is difficult to see how the Israeli campaign in Gaza, with its immensely lower percentages of population and civilians killed, could qualify as genocide.

Another important indicator of genocide is the ratio of civilian casualties to enemy combatant deaths. If the intent is the destruction of a group, then civilians will represent a high casualty ratio relative to combatants. BUT, a low ratio of civilian-to-combatant deaths augurs for general lethality, not genocide.

In the non-genocidal campaigns of World War II, the civilian-to-combatant death ratio was approximately 2:1. In the Korean War, it was 3:1; in the Persian Gulf War, it was 9:1; and in the Iraq War, it was 2:1.

In today’s Gaza war, it is 20,000/13,000 or 1.54:1. The low 1.54:1 Gaza ratio is notable because the war is being fought in dense urban areas where civilians have little protection, while Hamas fighters are protected in underground tunnels.

Hamas has also cynically positioned its military assets in and under schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. They have perfected the method of deploying “the human shield”, fundamentally .

Still, it’s impossible to remain insensitive to the immense tragedy in Gaza. As you’ve pointed out, seeing dead children being pulled from the rubble is intolerable. And so is knowing that Kfir Bibas (1 year old) and his brother Ariel (4) are being held captive by murderous monsters. They are not the only ones.

Emotional recoil easily overcomes careful thinking. Meanwhile, there is great political value for some in describing Israel’s actions as genocide: it condemns Israel of the most heinous of crimes, thereby strengthening the radical argument to dismantle the Jewish state. And this radical argument is being pushed most vociferously by those who hate the West also, so be very wary of it.

You parroting this line without a solid understanding of international law or any tangible evidence (in other words, assumptions made on “just a feeling”) are emboldening the very people that want to dispose of liberal values entirely. That’s not a future I want, and I’m not sure it’s one you want either, if you’re being perfectly honest.

We CANNOT conflate genocide with the general hellishness of war, otherwise the term genocide losses unique descriptive and prescriptive meaning.

If the war in Gaza constitutes genocide, then so do World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and all conflicts with horrific lethality. This is problem because, for example, then Nazi extermination campaigns against Jews, Roma, ethnic Slavs etc. become no worse than any bloody war. The creates immense harm because genocide as a distinctive concept of extreme evil will have died, as will our conviction to prevent its recurrence.

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 11:37

Shja · 29/04/2024 22:11

Straw man argument. Look it up and you may learn something.

I think that you misunderstand the meaning of “straw man argument”

Dineasair · 30/04/2024 11:39

Weightlosssideeffect · 29/04/2024 20:45

Anything past the centre is ‘far right’ nowadays 🙄

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Lottie2shoes · 30/04/2024 11:40

@TempestTost To be honest, I only quote from my experience as I think that would be the most truthful. I can easily mention other people out of my circle but that would be pure hearsay.
But I totally agree with you. I am not saying there is no fault on either side. We are all guilty of making mistakes.
But yeah, I do not like Muslims being tarred with one brush as each and every Muslim out there is a human being first and foremost.
We have our strengths, we have our weaknesses, our desires, frustrations, being scared, wants, needs etc.
I think we all more or less want the same thing, to live our lives happily, to give respect and be respected also, to feel free to follow our faith or not without feeling oppressed.
But yes there are good and bad people in all society, which might be influenced by where they have lived, how they have been treated, resentment from wherever etc.
I cannot say all Muslims are good people. I like to think the majority are but the same could be said about the non Muslims.
There are lots of non Muslims out there that are also just as bad if not worse.
There are a few posters on this thread also that seem to be fanning the flames of a you, me divide which is scary.

Lottie2shoes · 30/04/2024 11:57

@9021Pho I deleted my posts because I have decided to get off this thread. It has become too depressing with some people coming out with some crazy rhetorics now to fit their agenda.

But I have/ am replying to my last 2 mentions.
Maybe I am wrong in defining genocide. I do not know what number constitutes genocide specifically but 34,000 people seems to me to be alot.
I have perhaps read differing reports to you as I have read that the majority of these people were killed were children and then women.
I am meant to be actually working right now so do not have the exact figures right now but it was said two thirds at least.
Do you really think that is fair? 1 third were men and god knows how much of these were actually hamas?
This does not sit right with me. I may be wrong in saying genocide but this is definitely cold blooded murder.
It is not even an eye for an eye, not that that would make it any better. 2 wrongs do not make it right.
So you may have the right statistics and I may have the wrong definition but I still stand by what I actually meant.
I have actually as I said decided to get off this thread, how depressing and islamophobic it has become. I feel it is not the right place for me any more. So if you do want to reply, fair enough but I will not be engaging any further.
I wrote on the thread to allay Ops fears but now I realise that may have been disguised into something else just to whip up frenzy.
Have a good day.