Was I out of order

[YouwouldthinkIhavemoresense]

Yesterday I was at a football match and at a stadium. It was heaving and I have never been to a stadium, or indeed a football match, before.
Had my children with me. One of each sex. Just me to add. No other adults.

Anyway, took my youngest to the female toilet with me just before half time. Two men ( or at least I thought they were) - entered as well. Both very masculine looking and dressed very sporty with very short/ shaved haircuts.

So me being me, said quite nonchalantly to one of them “ this is the ladies “… just that.

One of them responded with “ we ARE female “
I apologised for my mistake and thought that was it.

Well, with that, there was then a tirade of passive aggressive behaviour/ comments from both of them: it was all very unpleasant. They even spoke to each other loudly about me whilst in the cubicles.

I then bumped into them whilst washing my hands and they continued to goad me- staring at me, laughing, telling each other to “ calm down” and “ that I wasn’t worth it” , commenting on my face/ appearance.
It was horrid. And all this time I had my child with me.

AIBU in feeling uncomfortable or was my initial reaction really that provoking?

Preparing to be flamed 😬

It's a nothing event to you, clearly it wasn't a nothing event to the two women who were offended. You don't get to decide how people are allowed to feel.

Women are entitled to dress as they wish, as are men.

Unfortunately I think some of us are now a lot more wary in places like public toilets, changing rooms etc because of gender ideology leading many people to believe they are entitled to use whichever facilities match their identity. We have all seen and heard about men pretending to be trans and coming into women’s spaces for nefarious reasons. There has been a big pushback on this from feminists- rightly so, because single sex spaces are important.

I can see why many women are now more wary and might challenge someone who appears to be male in a female space. This is probably unlikely to happen to me because although I generally wear trousers and no make up, I do have long hair and I’m short with a small build so unlikely to be mistaken for a man. But if I was challenged in a women’s space because someone thought I was male, I probably would feel a little offended, but I hope I’d be able to politely respond to the mistake and not make an issue out of it (because ultimately, I’d be glad to meet another woman who wants to protect women’s spaces as much as I do).

The women in the loo with OP are entitled to wear what the fuck they like. There was no need for them to be rude and aggressive to the OP.

No, it isn't.

The OP glanced at two people and made a snide, passive-aggressive comment.

She's now come to whinge that, in response, other people made passive-aggressive comments to her.

If she'd truly been sorry, she'd have been mortified by her mistake and would have sucked up these women saying whatever they said.

Instead, she came on here hoping people would side with her.

I wouldn’t have been best pleased to be told I look like a bloke to be fair

but then on the other hand - if they dress, look and act like blokes what do they expect

It's more often the women wearing dresses, heels, and a lot of makeup that I might take a second glance at to determine their sex. Women without makeup almost always look obviously like women to me as I can easily see their face.

Unless you were there, I don't think you can make the assumption that it was a snide comment!

Of course they are, and that’s fine. But if their choices make them look like a man, they can’t complain when they are mistaken for men. Of course they can correct people who make incorrect assumptions, but it’s a bit rich to get arsey about it.

I'm sorry the women were rude to you. I hope it doesn't put you off challenging men for being in women's toilets. I know a number of women who don't look stereotypically female, and they wouldn't react this way, they get that they can be mistaken for men at a first glance, and would agree that the important thing is making sure toilets are used by the sex they're intended for.

Women with short hair in trousers and footy tops don’t look like men, unless you are particularly hard of thinking and given to ignorant and lazy stereotypes.

My wife has been turned away from women’s changing rooms because they see an undercut and a ‘man’s’ shirt and presume she is a man… despite the women’s voice, lack of Adam’s apple, only being 5’5 and the 36 jj tits staring them in the face.

A friend of mine was once refused service because the shop assistant noticed her debit card had her name on it, and thought she must have stolen it because she was ‘obviously a man’. She pulled out her id, which the staff said MUST be fake because she was ‘obviously a man’… at the point they said they were going to call the police she took off her hoodie and pointed at her tits. Their response? Well you should have longer hair and why are you wearing a baggy jumper?!

I’ve got friends who keep their ID handy if they go to the toilet in public because they get challenged by idiots so often.

To the op she is one person who made one comment… but if several people a week ‘only make a mistake’ then gender non conforming women are being questioned, insulted and threatened a lot because they dress differently.

Perhaps in future, you’ll mind your own business. Your narrow minded view of what a woman should look like singles out women who look different when all they were trying to do was go to the toilet. They weren’t threatening you or acting a way that was concerning and yet you still chose to harass them because they didn’t “look like women.” Heaven forbid anyone exists in something other than a dress and long hair.

Well you should have longer hair and why are you wearing a baggy jumper?!

Wow!

And I thought climate change, at least 2 wars, COL/housing crisis were all I had to worry about; and now this little chestnut.

YABU - it was a footie match, your first and you became the toilet monitor. Next time, just be happy you've got a loo without a queue.

Does saying ‘this is the ladies’ constitute harassment?

How does one dress like a man?

Its hyperbole designed to persuade women into 'minding their own business' about who uses women's toilets. You must never challenge anyone ever, because of the vanishingly rare chance you'll get it wrong and challenge an actual woman. Given that a few months ago in a public toilet at my local station a man walked in unchallenged and sexually assaulted a woman, I think the occasional mistake is the lesser of two evils.

On its own, probably not.

But you know the thing you tell kids -“if everyone only picks one flower there won’t be any left in the garden”?

Well if every time these women go to the loo/changing room/female gym session/female sauna room etc someone only says one thing, then these women are being questioned a lot, just because they look different to ‘average ladies’.

No, challenge men who say they are women.

Open your fucking eyes, take in what is in front of you and don’t challenge women who happen to look different than the majority.

Sorry but I've spent today literally wearing mens clothing (my husband's hoodie and jacket) with jeans and docs. I was not intentionally "dressing like a man" or "presenting as a man". I was trying to stay warm and dry. If I then had to defend the fact I'm a woman because some person decided that I wasn't conforming enough, I would have snapped as well. Fuck that, I would have been furious.

She made a mistake. She didn't look carefully enough and knew immediately they spoke she'd made a mistake. So yes, you're correct in saying she should look more carefully. What is not correct is to tell a woman she should be minding her own business about who uses women's toilets, as several people on here have said. And if you look carefully and, in the highly unlikely event you still can't tell, it's better to speak up than not.

No, challenge men who say they are women.

I agree. OP thought the women were ‘men who say they are women’, which is why she challenged them. I actually blame rampant transactivism for all of this. Ten or so years ago, GNC women would have been much less likely to be challenged in the loos because at that time we didn’t have lots of men who say they are women trying to get into all of our spaces.

The OP says she realised on closer inspection that the women were women, so she obviously should have taken more care to look closely and then she wouldn’t have challenged them.

I still don’t think they needed to be aggressive though. They could have actually completely ignored the OP and just gone about their business.

She didn’t look carefully though did she. She saw something ‘different’ and made a lazy presumption. Women don’t need to be made to feel embarrassed because other women use their mouths before their eyes.

They didn’t need to be aggressive. I would have let the op apologise then ignored her (while thinking she was a dick in my head).

Ten or so years ago, GNC women would have been much less likely to be challenged in the loos

This isn’t the case- GNC women have been being harassed in women’s spaces for as long as I remember- if not because people thought they were men then because people presumed they were lesbians and were homophobic. A lot of women don’t think they should have to share toilets/changing rooms etc with gay women.

If they completely ignored OP and went about their business they could have been in more trouble or faced harassment. They don't know if OP was about to tell everyone that men were in the women's toilets with her young daughter and they'd be met with pitch forks or kicked out of the stadium unless they were prepared to 'prove' they were women.

I have had decades of amusement, going into 'dress shops' and emerging from the changing rooms to the 'assistant' marvelling at my wonderful figure; followed by wearing said dresses at various 'events' and 'soirees' with many men's eyes stood out on stalks and most women appreciating my effort to turn out 'well'.

Now in my 60s my 'dress' senses are still the same, although the face needs makeup now, the body is still there - and I have rarely gone to a 'gym'. Just a lifetime wearer of practical clothes moving my body around doing practical things.

No? I think it sounds snide.

I have noticed plenty of freedom characterising these other women's contributions.