Was I out of order

[YouwouldthinkIhavemoresense]

Yesterday I was at a football match and at a stadium. It was heaving and I have never been to a stadium, or indeed a football match, before.
Had my children with me. One of each sex. Just me to add. No other adults.

Anyway, took my youngest to the female toilet with me just before half time. Two men ( or at least I thought they were) - entered as well. Both very masculine looking and dressed very sporty with very short/ shaved haircuts.

So me being me, said quite nonchalantly to one of them “ this is the ladies “… just that.

One of them responded with “ we ARE female “
I apologised for my mistake and thought that was it.

Well, with that, there was then a tirade of passive aggressive behaviour/ comments from both of them: it was all very unpleasant. They even spoke to each other loudly about me whilst in the cubicles.

I then bumped into them whilst washing my hands and they continued to goad me- staring at me, laughing, telling each other to “ calm down” and “ that I wasn’t worth it” , commenting on my face/ appearance.
It was horrid. And all this time I had my child with me.

AIBU in feeling uncomfortable or was my initial reaction really that provoking?

Preparing to be flamed 😬

I find it fascinating how everyone is obsessed with "protecting women's spaces for women" until there are two women who don't confirm to what society presumes a woman looks like.

Well said.

Women who purposefully made themselves look like the opposite gender?! If a man dressed as a lady and entered the female toilets, you're not going to question him? I can imagine you saying, "leave him alone, we don't know if he is a woman!?" Years ago a small girl was raped in the local supermarket toilets. No-one challenged the man who went in, because they weren't sure if he was a lesbian/trans. If you make yourself look different on purpose, then you should be prepared for some questioning around safe spaces for women. As long as people ask in a respectful way, it's for the right reasons, for safety.

Since when is wearing sports gear and having short hair "purposefully making yourself look like the opposite gender?

They hadn't "purposefully made themselves look like the opposite gender" @Beautiful3, they were just two women, existing. Just because they didn't have long hair and a mini skirt on doesn't mean there were intentionally trying to look like a man?

It doesn’t have to be purposeful. It’s good that women speak up to protect female spaces.

Agree with the others saying wearing, for instance, a hoody and jeans, does not mean I am 'purposefully looking like the opposite gender'! It means I like to wear a hoody and jeans!

Protect female spaces... from women? Right, okay.

Bollocks. When the op actually looked beyond just ‘short hair and trackies’ she could see they were women, not potential rapists.

Being gender non conforming isn’t a crime- women should not have to be questioned and explain themselves because other people don’t engage their brains.

@Kalevala sorry you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not drawing direct comparisons between what the women OP saw were wearing, and punk fashion.

What I mean is that style choices lead to predictable reactions. Taking steps to look like a man, then getting stroppy when people mistake you for a man, is similar to dressing as a punk (hair, piercings, chains etc) and getting stroppy when people look at you.

Protect them from women?!

Gender non conforming women aren’t trying to look like men (and they don’t look like men to anyone who bothers to actually look)- they are wearing what they like and think suits them, just like anyone else.

They aren't taking steps to look like a man, though. Unless they are wearing a binder to hide their breasts? I didn't misunderstand. Looking like a punk takes effort, pulling on some jeans and a hoodie, or getting a 10-minute haircut doesn't.

Taking steps to look like a man? What like having short hair and not wearing a skirt? What are you on about

They can dress how they like, they don't need to conform to your idea of how a woman should present herself.

I spend 99% of my life in jeans and a t shirt or jumper. I have short hair. No one has ever been so ignorant or judgemental as to question my sex. I would think they were very rude if they did.

Are we going to challenge anyone who makes gender non-conforming choices for walking into a bathroom just on the off chance they are a rapist?
And these women just have to accept that because of their natural androgynous looks or preference for comfortable clothes and low maintenance hairstyles (or lose their hair to cancer, you don't know) they will constantly be under scrutiny and defend themselves against suspicion?
And you believe this is honestly going to lead to a better world for all women?

That's nuts.

Believe me, I have some sympathy for people who question what space to carve out for trans women in, for example, women's sports, but this is some next level dystopian shit right here.

It's mentality like yours that causes fights between ppl. If op was concerned that two males had walked into the ladies by accident then she absolutely has the right to speak. Op said sorry for the error and that should be the end. Assuming someone is male or female when they are not, does not make them an idiot, it's your mentality that's the issue. Non malice assumptions do not need to be met with aggression and intimidation. Your comments are far more of a worry then op's.

On topic: OP, aggression is never OK, and nasty remarks about your appearance are over the line, whether you have a child with you or no. But I do not blame them for not accepting your apology with grace. And if you had caught me on a bad day, I would probably have laughed at you too, in an attempt to shrug off the hurt I felt (because the world is merciless on women who make gender non-conforming choices, believe me, especially when you are young and supposedly only exist for the male gaze). And yes, a nasty comment might have slipped out.

Now move past it, and be less judgmental in the future. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and can wear sporty clothes too.

You're absolutely not being unreasonable to feel they thoroughly overreacted to what was an honest momentary mistake on your part (and who hasn't made the odd one?) that was immediately acknowledged and apologised for.

For these two women to then make aggressive and deliberately unpleasant comments at you in a private space with your young daughter present was horrid and a reflection on them as people.

They sound like immature, aggressive cowards.

You're the classy one.

Don't give them another thought, Lovely x

Oh, so wearing jeans/joggers and a footy shirt is 'dressing like a man' now is it?

How would you like a lady to dress? in a naice milkmaid dress, hat and heels like they're attending aintree?

No- the op wasn’t genuinely convinced they were men- she said herself that once she actually looked at them it was clear they were both women.

She just saw 2 women in sports clothes with short hair and engaged her lazy stereotypes before she actually bothered to engage her brain.

Before any trans-debate there's always been women who have dressed practically, because generally men's clothes and even hair shorter haircuts could be more practical, done it for years myself, although I did keep longer hair I used to be called a 'lesbian' because I was obviously female.

Makeup was also a useless addition to one's day, if work involved animals for instance. Same on the football/rugby field - alhough that's since moot as many male amd female footballers have flowing locks and more than a dab of make up on, completely their choice, if they're happy, I'm happy.

Whilst I've got the tools to do a full 'dress-up', I'd rather not as I find hobbling around on heels, my skin covered in god knows what, my physical activity constrained by a dress/skirt all a bit of a pain.

I'm still a fully-born heterosexual woman and can see why someone might get a bit pissed off if someone questioned my gender coz I didn't look 'womanly' enough. Particularly as it was a football match and not, for example, a Bridalwear shop.

AIBU isn't the place for this, @YouwouldthinkIhavemoresense. Plenty of posters who just want to pile onto someone, regardless. Ignore them.

It's understandable. It's a nothing event that they could have laughed off. Forget it.

God.. the ingrained misogyny on this thread is shocking.

Are you people hearing yourselves?

Having short hair and wearing trousers/footy shirts is not 'dressing like a man' not is it purposefully trying to 'look like a man' or 'present like a man'