Right wing thugs 'protecting the flag' on St George's Day

[newnamethanks]

Cruella's boot boys out on the street again protecting our British freedoms in their usual brutish fashion with violent disorder. She must feel very proud.

Yes. I would agree that needs looking into IF that’s what the stats actually show. But, it’s also not ok to present it as a causal phenomenon. Especially as it is incitement to racial hatred.

You can’t tar all people with same brush either. There is a lovely AMA by a Roma Gypsy on here at the moment and it was horrible to see how she was being held accountable for the dreadful behaviour of the worst of her ethnic group, when she was clearly lovely.

Lots of sanctuary seekers are scared, desperate, peaceful and want to contribute positively to our society. Many bring fantastic skills. There are bad people in all groups. If I needed to flee the UK because my life was in danger and there was no legal way to do it (and this is the answer is to create legal pathways) I’d hope I’d be looked after as a fellow human.

I don't know all 'Western feminists' but the ones I do know have been at the forefront of campaigns centred on FMG, forced marriage - led and educated by groups such as Southall Black Sisters - established in 1979 - who argued and educated other refuge and sexual assault services on being to white/Eurocentric in their focus - a call which was listened to - I have always felt it's best to be led by the experts when tackling issues of abuse outside of my experience - and have been involved in campaigns in support.

I think it's one of those misplaced notions of political correctness not dissimilar to the self loathing we see in so many Brits. It's seen as racist to criticise certain cultures.

What's odd, though, is that other ideologies aren't subject to this. Like, nobody is afraid to criticise Nazism. But when it comes to the patriarchal aspects seen in certain cultures people are afraid to speak up for fear of being bigots.

The irony is that sexual assault isn't something that's actually condone by Islam, so criticising some of the behaviours we see from Islamic men isn't actually being intolerant to the religion. It's more akin to criticising paedophilia in the Catholic church.

I take your points, but this goes back to my earlier point about absolute thinking - i.e. all men are responsible for male violence, all Muslims are responsible for the misogynistic actions of a minority.

The only men that should face condemnation are those that commit the sexual crimes, and I don't believe they should be granted impunity due to some misplaced notion of political correctness or the views of ignorant people that would tar all with the same brush.

If their actions do bring scrutiny to certain cultural aspects of Islam then it's them, the perpetrators, that should be held responsible for this, not the victims that should be scared to speak up.

But it's an unevenly applied logic tbh because the slightest mention of 'not all men' invokes derision on here and nobody is saying that we shouldn't address male violence for fear of men all being tarred with the same brush. In fact, it's far more common to see the view that all men are responsible for calling out the bad uns and that 'if you're not helping, you're part of the problem' etc.

So why is it suddenly different when the demographic/protected characteristic is religion/cultural practices rather than sex? I honestly think it goes back to my previous quote about how we're conditioned not to see the oppressed as oppressors when in reality they can simultaneously be both.

"The irony is that sexual assault isn't something that's actually condone by Islam, so criticising some of the behaviours we see from Islamic men isn't actually being intolerant to the religion. It's more akin to criticising paedophilia in the Catholic church."

Muslims would want the perpetrators of these kinds of crimes caught and punished just as much as anyone else would. It's disgusting to all communities.

So you don't have stats wrt foreign born and British born sex offenders. That's OK @MarioIa. I looked and couldn't find any either.

What I did find were the statistics that showed intimate partners were the biggest group of male sex offenders, followed by acquaintances. This ties in with my own experience working with abused women and survivors of child abuse and domestic violence.

But a Muslim can be white! I'm not the one that mentioned someone's skin colour

Do we make women more vulnerable by pushing a narrative that it is foreigners or people in toilets who are more likely to be the perpetrators?

Yes to this. Why is it this set of information that causes this denial?

The only men that should face condemnation are those that commit the sexual crimes, and I don't believe they should be granted impunity due to some misplaced notion of political correctness or the views of ignorant people that would tar all with the same brush.

No impunity shouldn’t be granted. The causes should be examined. The law should be enforced. All male violence should be addressed at a societal level. It’s a massive issue.

My point is that by making a causal link where none has been proven is dangerous.

You said, something akin to, sanctuary seeking brown skinned men commit more sexual crime than white men born here. You can’t back that up with proof. Sexual assaults may have risen. More asylum may have been granted.

But correlation doesn’t equal causation. Sexual assault May risen thanks to the likes of idiots like Tate on the internet. The causes are likely to be complex rather than one thing.

You have engaged in hyperbolic and incendiary language. You are angry about women being hurt so I get it, but I don’t want to live, as a woman, in a country divided. We can have these difficult conversations without angrily blaming a whole group of people for the actions of a minority.

And as a mother to a son, I’d rather we didn’t angrily blame all men either. We can hold people to account without the pitchforks.

This is exactly why UN Women did not issue a statement on the rapes of Israeli women by Hamas which took place on 7/10 until 1 December. Cognitive dissonance.

It's an interesting phemonemom.

That quote is from a Muslim woman who suffered FGM and fled from a forced marriage before becoming an activist. It's odd seeing white feminists from western counties trying to discredit her lived experience - not just on here, there was also an article published by some virtue signalling American news reporter who was mightily offended by her comments about the patriarchal nature of Islam.

There is an interesting panorama on IPlayer about immigration.

Very true, @ghostyslovesheets

In this country, approximately 1-2% of rapes end in a conviction.

So 99% of them remain unsolved.

You haven’t provided stats for the UK, but let’s assume for a second that conviction rates are similar in the countries you mention.

Can you understand some reasons why brown / foreign people might be over-represented in the minuscule numbers of people convicted?

for example, inherent racism that leads to rape perpetrated by brown / foreign people being taken more seriously?

I don’t minimise the case you have held up - they are horrific and terrifying and absolutely must be investigated.

But it’s not correct to suggest the stats show more brown / foreign people commit these heinous crimes. More are brought to justice, yes. But that doesn’t equate to more perpetrators.

You can see it in the responses

@newnamethanks
55% say YABU

Yes, I don't doubt there may be disparity in the way the criminal justice system treats different demographics, and the fact that with rich individuals the assaults often take place behind closed doors.

But I still think it's hard to downplay the 1200 sexual assaults on NYE and the many other simialar events. That dynamic of big groups of men sexually assaulting women is something that's relatively common in the middle East but pretty much unheard of here. The closest we have here is gangs of builders catcalling women.

Like, I don't think there have been instances of large groups of western men committing 1000+ assaults in one night and it's just that they got away with it and nobody caught them.

No one is downplaying what happened but there is absolutely no basis for the idea that this is a cultural practice. Instances have occurred, mainly during protests and periods of civil unrest; it’s a horrible, unthinkable thing but you seem to be suggesting it’s a cultural practice amongst certain groups. It isn’t.

It isn’t ’relatively common’ in the Middle East. There have been several high profile instances since the early 2010s, mainly wrapped up in civil unrest, and there have been some very regrettable repeats in Europe. Every instance is unforgivable and worthy of investigation, but it is disingenuous to suggest it says something about a religious or ethnic demographic

Talk about can't see what's in front of your eyes. I despair.

These "men" literally say they rape and attack white women because they're worthless and good for nothing but sex...how is there not a cultural or religious aspect to that?

What have I said that's racist please?

Most of your comments on this thread.