To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

[beinghonestherenow]

And I can see why, although he’s only 3. I’m hoping to god he changes but it’s not looking hopeful.

He is really … unpleasant. I never hear him laugh unless it’s this horrible cackle (which goes right through me tbh) when he’s doing something he’s not supposed to.

The more annoyed or stern someone is with him the more he finds it funny.

He is aggressive and bites kicks and pushes, snatches toys, literally the second another child shows an interest in a toy he grabs it. I keep thinking this is getting better but then we’re back to square one.

I am worried about the impact it’s having on my marriage (I’m close to leaving tbh as I can’t cope) and our other child.

Speech is a funny one. There’s no delay as such but he is a question dodger. If you ask a question (I don’t mean about behaviour but it applies there too) you often get a random answer which bears no relevance to what you’ve asked. I’m planning to speak to nursery about this at parents evening which is soon.

"High functioning" is an outdated term as it's not useful and I can assure you children are assessed because they show signs of autism not because they are perceived as "low functioning". Waiting lists are long at the moment so earlier is better.

If you have concerns then talk to your GP and make sure you get him into preschool/education as early as possible and then keep in touch w R3ith the teacher regarding this.

Look into" demand avoidance" and PDA as well as low demand parenting.

Good luck it's not easy but support is available.

You can request a referral from your GP. Better to start now and have to wait than for things to spiral and find you are years ahead.

1. You do not have to lie to the receptionist, “I would like to make an appointment, I am not comfortable discussing the details with you as it is of a personal nature” done. They can ask questions to rule out emergencies (any chest pain, shortness of breath etc). Also there are counselling options on the NHS so you won’t be paying.

2. the reason people are calling you rude is because you are quite resistant and defensive, you will say you want help but then say you don’t. People can find that confusing and difficult to understand

3. Unless you are a specialist in the field do not assume your child would be classed as high functioning if they were to be found to be ND.

4. Why are you so resistant to your child being ND and starting the assessment process? It can take years but you are willing to leave it even longer? That just seems like you are burying your head in the sand. Your excuse about being labeled difficult is thin and not really applicable and sounds like you are reaching because you are scared.

5. Sounds like your other child is a baby or younger than your 3yo and you think there may be some jealousy issues there, definitely worth reading about etc. also you said there was an incident in feb? You haven’t given details (which is absolutely fine and not a dig!) but if it has upset your son deeper than expected you need to get professional help sooner rather than later.

@johnd2 i do know a bit about autism, thanks. The point is that he isn’t a case where it is immediately obvious. I was sat next to a baby last week of around twelve months who was showing some very clear signs of autism - stimming and rocking and so on. Some forms of autism are more immediately apparent than others. As I have said a few times now, he may have ASD. School will most likely be the big reveal. Or he may not. At the moment there is not enough to make a judgement either way and certainly his childcare providers are not of the opinion he is ND.

Yes. Op I’m a teacher and some of the most challenging year 7s I’ve taught (I used to check the register to see if they were in school, they were that bad - truly dreadful) and then they become the most lovely year 13s. Happens the other way too.

Be kind to yourself but keep up with the discipline too (and positive reinforcement etc obviously). He’ll get there with that in time. It’s easier said than done I know when you’re knackered and have had enough. I always tell myself with my pupils and my own DC that when it feels hardest (to sanction etc) that’s when it’s the most important to follow through.

It is a worry OP and I’m sorry : it sounds really stressful - and a little bit heart-breaking. He’s your baby after all.

He sounds like another child I have known in much of what you describe ( especially the laughing and seeming not to care) and I can only say that child was not well liked and knew it - and that was the problem. He was a middle child of three ( not your issue I know), wedged between a golden child and the cute baby of the family and most of the time his name was mentioned it was to reprimand him. Truthfully, the laughing and indifference was a shield he adopted as his way of coping. Even at a very young age resourceful children will find a way to deflect criticism or try to cope with the negativity.

I realise that isn’t exactly your situation , but you are clearly an involved mum and trying to tackle the bad behaviour which is the right thing to do. But I’m wondering if maybe you’re so focused on that aspect that he is feeling “ not liked.” And actually you kind of said that tbf! None of us respond well when we know people dislike us, even adults. Just look how childish some of the MIL/DIL threads get on here. It isn’t necessarily about spending time with him as such, as when he’s being a pain the longer focus on him probably means more things you have to address. But can you try pre-empting it ( say when you collect him from nursery and before he has a chance to act up) just scoop him up and say “ how’s my good and gorgeous boy!” Or “ Oh how I’ve missed my special man!” It might feel odd at first for both of you; but I think he’s needing real affirmation and it gets harder and harder for you to give if he’s always a PITA. You need to find the spaces - even if they are just neutral spaces at first rather than behaviour really needing a reward - and lay it on thick. Get in there with an emergency dose of love and appreciation. He will start to see the contrast between that and when he misbehaves. And importantly he will realise you do love him, he just isn’t giving you many chances to show it. I think his crappy attitude is his carapace.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with your son. You sound intelligent, caring and the sort of person I'd want to chat to on the playground - regardless of the behaviour of your child!

I've only read your posts so someone may already have said this, but when your son laughs in your face he is unlikely to be laughing 'at' you. Young children tend to do this in an attempt to make you happy and diffuse a situation. In their minds they see you looking upset so they laugh in the hope you'll join in too. Kid logic! Definitely not something to take personally.

I hope you have a better day today.

I have a very difficult child to parent. He’s on the ADHD and ASD pathways, demands have to be carefully framed and he is a child who doesn’t ’listen to boundaries’. However, it doesn’t mean boundaries are useless or we don’t have them. That’s my ds. My dd is typical 2yo pushing boundaries stage and also not easy to parent. Again, it doesn’t mean we don’t have boundaries. I think it’s about defining what that means, what is each boundary or rule and how do you react? It can be as simple as carrying them to the car and taking them home because they’re at a point they can’t deal with things any more.

I think right now you’ve identified there might be something going on for you. Some of your posts have been quite black and white and I think it’s worth exploring that more. I wouldn’t dismiss therapy instantly. It can be very helpful in reframing things. Even just looking at techniques and thinking about things differently can help. Equally think it’s a good idea to phone the GP. It’s less that half of us are gentle parents decrying your approach and the other half believe no bad behaviour happened before gentle parenting. It’s more about behavioural threads tending to attract parents of ND children or children with difficult behaviour who have been taught or learnt specific techniques for these difficult behaviours and learnt that shame and shouting tend to escalate situations (not in relation to your post, but in general explaining why traditional discipline etc doesn’t always work for those children). Parents who haven’t experienced really difficult behaviour also reply and tend to think that their techniques would work no matter what situation (which is often also what parents of ND children assume prior to parenting and end up feeling unnecessarily guilty about when it doesn’t and they seek support).

I think the best way forward is to reassess the situation when you feel you’re in a good place yourself. I’ve found the second I get stuck in negative thinking and am in a less good place mentally, I start to think nothing suggested will work and feel instantly frustrated at most suggestions - as soon as I’m in a better place mentally, I’m much more open.

@Pingu18764 like I say saying something is not for you is not being rude but if you think it is report those posts. Sorry but I don’t know why people think informing an OP who is obviously struggling that they are rude, this was rude, that was rude, is helpful. Just report any rude posts and move on. It’s going to take a lot for me to ring the GP and I still have to think of a lie which I’m not comfortable with and I don’t think will go down well. (Yes you do have to give a reason or they refuse to give you an appointment.)

Just to say that this sounds like a normal 3 year old. My son was a nightmare at that age - violent, disruptive, no discipline/consequences of any kind worked.
Nursery told me to ‘love bomb’ him and that kind of worked. How old is the other sibling?
he might be autistic…or he might just be a naughty boy testing boundaries!
just keep going, and this too shall pass.
don’t worry about friendships at school. My son is fine now.

Another joining to say I hadn’t read your post first but I also sense he’s needing an overdose of affirmation and affection but he’s making it hard for the OP to give it.

He may be 'pretty high functioning' but you've started this whole thread on mumsnet because you are worried about him and his behaviour and how he communicates, and you're worried that other children will dislike him.

OP, please, admit to yourself that there is a problem here. Autism doesn't have to be non-verbal to mean that it needs diagnosis and support.

One minute you say you're worried and the next you brush it off because he's 'high functioning' and you apparently know that the GP won't do XYZ for him, there will be no support, etc. You're making a huge amount of assumptions here.

You'll never actually know unless you try, will you?

If you get started now then his diagnosis and support will be in place sooner than if you leave it another year and school pick it up. You could save him a couple of years of primary school lacking support if you get the ball rolling.

Sorry, I wasn’t saying I think you are rude, just trying to explain why people think you are.

also, you do not have to give a reason other than personal. This is my area of expertise which is why I mentioned it as you shouldn’t have to lie to the receptionist, it’s unacceptable.

You absolutely should answer the emergency questions if they have them as i mentioned before and you then say it’s personal, if they then refuse ask to discuss with a) someone clinical and b) the practice manager, inform them you will be calling the ICB and the CQC to report bad practice by the receptionist and the practice refusing appointments because people are legally entitled to not share their private medical details.

Even in A&E you do not need to give the receptionist information, it will go down as personal and then you are triaged privately, remind the GPs of this and that you have a right to privacy and confidentiality.

Why do you have to lie to the GP? Just say you are concerned about your child's development and want to discuss it. What's the lie?

You're not ready to explore ND and that's fine. But you seem to have a lot relying on reception noticing any issues. Reception, especially in a small badly funded school can very much be a sink or swim environment. Look at the stats on children excluded in primary school, the majority are ND. Mine was excluded in reception. Don't expect them to be your saviour. Your DC could well be made to feel like the naughty child for not keeping up with expectations. But he'll still be legally obliged to go there every single day. Teachers only have themselves to manage the whole class, likely with other ND children too. They don't always have the time your DC may need. That's up to you to push for the help they need. And if he does end up excluded, please don't punish him, it's not his fault.

@ChaosAndCrumbs the point is that a lot of MN posters will say things like

You need boundaries
You need stricter boundaries

So that’s fine and your boundary is no climbing and jumping on the dining room table and the child ignores that and finds it funny when removed from the dining room table and keeps running back with peals of uproarious laughter … wtf happens to this boundary then! (That’s a rhetorical question by the way. I do have rules and I do have some absolute no we don’t do that and others things are more ridicule to enforce I have found.)

The ND thing and this is a general point not specific, is becoming really tiresome. I am now being diagnosed myself because I’m not pursuing a diagnosis now, today

It’s frustrating oP when you’re reaching for help and getting criticism. It’s also frustrating when people think they know how to fix it and they don’t necessstily know your dc.

Your 3 year old might be ND or they might just be a dickhead, lots of 3 year olds are. Ime the assertiveness at this stage will serve them well later on and the ones I've seen grow up tend to be quite popular later on.

I would focus on lots of physical activities swimming tumble tots soft play stomping in the rain parks in all weathers. Really tire them out. You haven't got a sit still and play nice with others child so you have to adjust your expectations and do other stuff.

And - my attention is being a bit diverted with the posters insistent that he’d be diagnosed by summer at the earliest had he not been born to me but those of you who are offering hope - I am listening and you are helping.

I am really sorry you are going through this OP

it can be a very tough and lonely place

places like MN that used to be quite supportive can be a bit funny now with people getting angry (wtf?!) if you do not follow their advice… and you will get conflicting advice!

You will have to feel your way through it and learn to trust your own instincts. it would also be good to get your H MUCH more involved as this is too k m’n UTC to deal with alone

one of my kids was very difficult as a two/three year old, he even bit other kids and he seemed to not always like me a as he hated being hugged or cuddled

he did not show emotions either which made him seem “cold”

things did get better though, he got help at school (social and emotional, also academic) at the tiny state school. He got corrected by his peers too, which is interesting, but it is a big thing they get from schools: be nice or nobody wants to play with you.

it was his sibling who once explained to me, that his brother does not show much emotion but that that does not mean he does not have them.

We tried to keep consistent and loving, and firm. Definitely needed two parents on board with that btw

he ended up doing well in school and being very sociable and having loads of friends

lastly: be very kind to yourself. Undiagnosed and untreated PND is very hard to live with (if you have that) and you need to be super nice to yourself and give yourself a break (emotionally and physically), you need a weekend to yourself with a friend maybe, let your H look after the kids. You need to recover

take care

Yes he definitely isn’t one for chilled days at home!

Around his third birthday he did seem to start playing a bit better with toys and you could actually spend a few hours in the house with him. That’s changed again and he just trashes his things.

Hi, I just wanted to say I sympathise, but please don’t worry about how others - especially professionals- think about you if you push for a diagnosis or help. I say this because I did, and I regret that.
I was advised by nursery that my son was showing delay in speech, and I agreed to getting him assessed. It took a year before someone came out and said he seemed fine. I was embarrassed. At school, he was labelled naughty. A couple of years in and an activity club leader asked if I had considered the possibility he had ADHD. I heard that as he was badly behaved and she was trying to find excuses for him. A couple of months later, one of the more supportive teachers at his school suggested the same thing. I visited the gp (with my son) but felt too awkward to be entirely honest with how extreme things were, so he dismissed us. I found some courage to ring him and admit that I didn’t feel I could be completely honest in front of my son. He referred us to the hospital. I turned up at the hospital, my son started playing with some Lego. The paediatrician spent less than 5 minutes with us and said that as my son could focus on Lego he couldn’t have ADHD. I felt hugely embarrassed and vowed to never bring up the idea of my son having ADHD again. I saw a family worker a few months later who asked me about this, and after I told her, she revealed that the guy we saw had been dismissed after a number of complaints of not taking people’s concerns seriously. With her support, I did ask for a second opinion.

Eventually, when we finally saw someone, we were told that she had absolutely no doubt that my son had severe ADHD and we finally started to get some help.

It all took about 3 years from the first concern being raised. It would have been quicker if I had been more persistent and less worried about what people thought. If you think something isn’t right, it probably isn’t - you are in the best position to know.
It wasn’t magic, but life did become easier when we started to understand more about his behaviour and we were then able to change our strategies accordingly.
Sorry for the essay, and I do hope things start to become easier for you.

OP my cousin was a right pain when she was 3 but as a pp said, by the time she was 12. she was lovely (she's in her 30s now).

I doubt very much all the other 3 year old boys you see are all sweetness and light - not all the time, or for their whole childhoods - mine was ok when he was 3, but by the time he was older I was having those awkward reports from school/the childminders and parents' evenings. But he grew up, made friends and is a very pleasant young man now. You might think everyone else's child behaves perfectly but (a) they don't and (b) they all have their phases. And it can be a phase, not a neurodivergent condition. Better to get it over with now!

And please internalise this: his behaviour is NOT a reflection of you. We all have free will and 3 year olds have plenty of it! Your response is, but not the behaviour itself.

Thanks so much.

he isn’t cold - the opposite really. Hot headed. He is quick to anger. I don’t often get angry with him but on the odd occasion I’ve yelled (not proud but you know) it’s ineffective because he just shouts NO back.

I would actually say the main ND possibilities are fearlessness: he will scale playgrounds designed for twelve year olds without any hesitation and also he has an odd response to pain. On several occasions I have believed he is possessed by the devil then a few days later it transpires he was unwell and probably very uncomfortable but he doesn’t say so. But that could also just be him. I’m actually quite fearless myself and have done a lot of extreme sports in the past but I obviously do take safety into account.