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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

395 replies

beinghonestherenow · 23/04/2024 18:27

And I can see why, although he’s only 3. I’m hoping to god he changes but it’s not looking hopeful.

He is really … unpleasant. I never hear him laugh unless it’s this horrible cackle (which goes right through me tbh) when he’s doing something he’s not supposed to.

The more annoyed or stern someone is with him the more he finds it funny.

He is aggressive and bites kicks and pushes, snatches toys, literally the second another child shows an interest in a toy he grabs it. I keep thinking this is getting better but then we’re back to square one.

I am worried about the impact it’s having on my marriage (I’m close to leaving tbh as I can’t cope) and our other child.

OP posts:
ineedtostopbeingdramaticfirst · 24/04/2024 05:52

Where can you get help-

self refer to early help tell them about you worst days with him. They should allocate a support worker who can give advice, do some work with your child . Refer you to a parenting course , refer you to counselling (free) Support with getting help from other services. Recommend any local services you may be unaware of.

You could ring your local NHS mental health services and ask to be referred for counselling. Stress management or mindfulness training. All free, it varies from area to area but where I live the wait time is about 3 months.

ineedtostopbeingdramaticfirst · 24/04/2024 05:58

You say he's high functioning but then what you describe is not. He's low functioning socially and emotionally. This is fairly normal for some neurodiverse children. He absolutely could get a diagnosis even if he's able to converse, understand numbers, letters, follow instructions , use a toilet etc .

It is also normal for some three year olds but I would be much more comfortable with a professional opinion than self diagnosis (or not)

Timeforsnacks · 24/04/2024 06:00

This sounds so much like my son, who will be 4 in 4 months. I'm pretty sure my son is not ND.
From birth he was always physical, bit, hit and scratched even though we have a very loving gentle family home. I realise that he goes through patches of being bad then being even worse. Then all of a sudden he is fine again but he has a huge boost of language and physical growth in this extra angry stage. I've realised that he gets hugely anxious and that's where it all comes from. Anxious someone else will use a toy that he may want to use for example. So before these situations I've been prepping him that toys get played with and then put down and if they aren't in his hands then he can play with them after their first play with someone else. The prep worked helped massively, he can calm himself quite often now because he hears my words in his head, also I'm better at distracting his bad behaviour. DH and I also have a small chat about a situation earlier in the day and reflect on how we could have done it better in a happy way so that we look forward to the next play time and don't give him anxiety about it.
Good Luck, I know it feels impossible. I know you are hating life right now but push past it positively and know you can fix this. DM me if you want to talk it through more

leftorrightnow · 24/04/2024 06:32

At 3, responding to punishment like missing a toy etc isn’t going to sink in yet.

he sounds like he has fairly age appropriate behavior. Maybe a bit challenging…

How if your home environment? Are you generally a harmonious and happy family? I don’t mean running around in fields singing cartoons songs over the top happy, just like middle of the road average happy. If there is parental conflict or stress over whatever issues you may have, that can hugely impact a child’s mood and behavior, even if this atmosphere isn’t directed at him. Children are like emotional sponges. I say this because we had quite a long period when the kids were young when we had a lot of marriage issues and conflicts and also relocated and faced unemployment and family bereavement, and this definitely had a negative effect on the kids who were bricking negative and difficult. Now we are much better and so are the kids!

everythingthelighttouches · 24/04/2024 06:37

I will put the discussion about your child to one side as you don’t seem ready to engage. By the way, this is perfectly normal.

What I will say from your many responses on this thread is:

You sound rock bottom op. I think you should go to the GP/HV to discuss the possibility you have post natal depression.

The other thing I would gently suggest is that you consider whether one or both of you and/or your DH are neuro diverse.

DutchHouse · 24/04/2024 06:43

I have only read the OP posts but I wanted to say, my DD was quite similar I think. Examples of her behaviour:

  • biting (once at a softplay)
  • scratching
  • territorial over toys
  • running around at playgroup instead of sitting (briefly) to listen to story
  • running off/ refusing to continue walking
  • generally creating a fight over every tiny thing

There are more, generally she is very physical and we have to explain to her about not just gentle hands but gentle body.

Anyway, I had also wondered about ND, maybe ADHD. But she is now at school (she is 4 but late summer baby) and the teachers say absolutely nothing wrong with her, she is just very strong willed. Her behaviour is starting to get better. She doesn’t bite of scratch anymore. She still gets extremely jealous of her sister and this can be hard, she hates it when I say anything to praise my other daughter. However I just wanted to say that there may be light at the end of the tunnel and the behaviour will likely improve with age.

I have found her extremely hard and sometimes used to even dread my day off with her. But she is much better now. I think she needs a lot of attention, which is difficult to give when you have another child and a job. Anytime I tell her off she’ll say “you hate me” or “you don’t love me”. When I put her to bed, when she has (finally) calmed down and is starting to drift off I tell her how much I love her, maybe sounds silly but I never want her to doubt it so tell her over and over. And I try to play with her 1:1, she loves this and I enjoy it too. We do things she can take control of, e.g. play with her dollhouse, magnatiles and she instructs me on what to do! Not long ago this would have ended with her throwing things - I do think she has just improved with age rather than anything I’ve done, unfortunately.

I also found it really hard to keep being given advice by friends who have just generally compliant children. A lot of the things that would work for other kids just had no affect on her. And then I feel like they think they are great parents and I am shit but actually they just have a child with an ‘easier’ personality!

BurnAfterReading24 · 24/04/2024 06:49

Name-changed as potentially quite outing.

We had a child at DD's nursery who was periodically very aggressive and defiant. It sounds a bit different to your situation in some ways but not vastly different in others. The nursery tried all sorts of things to stop him hurting other children and one quite helpful thing introduced for all the children was "Tucker Turtle" about what to do when you felt angry, and focused on lots of books about different emotions and how to recognise and deal with them. It was slow-going but I actually think that such an intense focus on emotions was incredibly helpful for my (very rarely aggressive) DD too - the vocabulary and self-control it gave her is now beyond what I expected for a child her age.

The boy is now at school now and doing far, far better, I understand. How much is down to what was done and how much to just growing out of it, who knows.

I am actually of the (very amateur) opinion that he's a particularly sensitive boy in need of a ridiculously over the top amount of affection and positive reinforcement alongside firm but explicitly loving, and 'unbothered' correction (if that makes sense). Essentially he needs key caregivers to have absolute, unquestioning confidence that this is in the range of normal (which, by the way and from what you've described, it is), that he's a lovely boy really and he will - with their love and guidance - blossom into that lovely boy with kindness and consideration for others and to treat him accordingly.

So much easier said than done as a parent with other focuses and with so much skin on the game. It would almost be easier for a very experienced, old-fashioned nanny who's totally sanguine about it and her confidence in him, and in herself to deal with anything he throws at her.

If you're able to channel (fake!) that sort if approach, though, I think it helps to lower the temperature and feeling of being out of control that might be internally scaring your child, particularly if it seems that his caregivers also have no idea what to do with him, or are stressed by his behaviour.

As you and others have said, active praising of any good behaviour is helpful, as is an over-abundance of affection, over-preparing verbally about concrete things he's going to do to behave well before going into a situation, and polite bafflement when he acts out because you know that "he's such a kind / thoughtful boy and kind / thoughtful boys do X, Y and Z" etc. but we'll try again in a bit once he's calmed down type thing.

I hope that some of what I'm saying makes sense. In my experience it's a long process but it's basically a project in managing your own emotions as much a his and faking (if necessary) an absolute calm confidence and loving approach that will get you close to where you want to be. For that you'll need some support yourself.

It's hard, but you're clearly a loving, concerned mother and I'm sure it will all come right. Good luck!

RadRad · 24/04/2024 06:50

beinghonestherenow · 23/04/2024 19:17

@Coatsoff42 it can be normal I know but it does feel it’s something that I think we are edging out of tolerance for. When he was 18 months / 2 obviously it happens but 3 … not that far off school really. Plus, what really worries me is not the ‘I’m playing with something and another kid takes it and I snatch it back’ - that’s understandable really. He will literally grab toys as other children pick them up. I can’t have play dates because he’s so territorial.

I do use a time out for when he’s violent but not sure it’s effective.

The toy snatching is normal, I see this in playcentres all the time, yes some kids are more forceful than others but I don’t go thinking oh, no this child is very unpleasant, I think this is just what kids are like. Has anyone from your circle of friends said something to the contrary to make you so aware of this to stop you going to playdates?
I haven’t read all comments but my advise OP would be to act every time this “unpleasantness” happens as others have said, but also to stop projecting or assuming things about the future. I’ve read that by the age of 4, children change their personalities tremendously.

BurnAfterReading24 · 24/04/2024 06:53

DutchHouse · 24/04/2024 06:43

I have only read the OP posts but I wanted to say, my DD was quite similar I think. Examples of her behaviour:

  • biting (once at a softplay)
  • scratching
  • territorial over toys
  • running around at playgroup instead of sitting (briefly) to listen to story
  • running off/ refusing to continue walking
  • generally creating a fight over every tiny thing

There are more, generally she is very physical and we have to explain to her about not just gentle hands but gentle body.

Anyway, I had also wondered about ND, maybe ADHD. But she is now at school (she is 4 but late summer baby) and the teachers say absolutely nothing wrong with her, she is just very strong willed. Her behaviour is starting to get better. She doesn’t bite of scratch anymore. She still gets extremely jealous of her sister and this can be hard, she hates it when I say anything to praise my other daughter. However I just wanted to say that there may be light at the end of the tunnel and the behaviour will likely improve with age.

I have found her extremely hard and sometimes used to even dread my day off with her. But she is much better now. I think she needs a lot of attention, which is difficult to give when you have another child and a job. Anytime I tell her off she’ll say “you hate me” or “you don’t love me”. When I put her to bed, when she has (finally) calmed down and is starting to drift off I tell her how much I love her, maybe sounds silly but I never want her to doubt it so tell her over and over. And I try to play with her 1:1, she loves this and I enjoy it too. We do things she can take control of, e.g. play with her dollhouse, magnatiles and she instructs me on what to do! Not long ago this would have ended with her throwing things - I do think she has just improved with age rather than anything I’ve done, unfortunately.

I also found it really hard to keep being given advice by friends who have just generally compliant children. A lot of the things that would work for other kids just had no affect on her. And then I feel like they think they are great parents and I am shit but actually they just have a child with an ‘easier’ personality!

I hadn't read your post before posting mine but it rings so true what you say about the insecurity and needing lots of attention.

Chicken and egg thing possibly, with the challenging behaviour and needing lots of reassurance/attention but it sounds like we're saying similar things.

Also just wanted to say well done - it sounds like you've done an amazing, persevering job and I know it takes so much energy to do it!

BurnAfterReading24 · 24/04/2024 06:58

BurnAfterReading24 · 24/04/2024 06:49

Name-changed as potentially quite outing.

We had a child at DD's nursery who was periodically very aggressive and defiant. It sounds a bit different to your situation in some ways but not vastly different in others. The nursery tried all sorts of things to stop him hurting other children and one quite helpful thing introduced for all the children was "Tucker Turtle" about what to do when you felt angry, and focused on lots of books about different emotions and how to recognise and deal with them. It was slow-going but I actually think that such an intense focus on emotions was incredibly helpful for my (very rarely aggressive) DD too - the vocabulary and self-control it gave her is now beyond what I expected for a child her age.

The boy is now at school now and doing far, far better, I understand. How much is down to what was done and how much to just growing out of it, who knows.

I am actually of the (very amateur) opinion that he's a particularly sensitive boy in need of a ridiculously over the top amount of affection and positive reinforcement alongside firm but explicitly loving, and 'unbothered' correction (if that makes sense). Essentially he needs key caregivers to have absolute, unquestioning confidence that this is in the range of normal (which, by the way and from what you've described, it is), that he's a lovely boy really and he will - with their love and guidance - blossom into that lovely boy with kindness and consideration for others and to treat him accordingly.

So much easier said than done as a parent with other focuses and with so much skin on the game. It would almost be easier for a very experienced, old-fashioned nanny who's totally sanguine about it and her confidence in him, and in herself to deal with anything he throws at her.

If you're able to channel (fake!) that sort if approach, though, I think it helps to lower the temperature and feeling of being out of control that might be internally scaring your child, particularly if it seems that his caregivers also have no idea what to do with him, or are stressed by his behaviour.

As you and others have said, active praising of any good behaviour is helpful, as is an over-abundance of affection, over-preparing verbally about concrete things he's going to do to behave well before going into a situation, and polite bafflement when he acts out because you know that "he's such a kind / thoughtful boy and kind / thoughtful boys do X, Y and Z" etc. but we'll try again in a bit once he's calmed down type thing.

I hope that some of what I'm saying makes sense. In my experience it's a long process but it's basically a project in managing your own emotions as much a his and faking (if necessary) an absolute calm confidence and loving approach that will get you close to where you want to be. For that you'll need some support yourself.

It's hard, but you're clearly a loving, concerned mother and I'm sure it will all come right. Good luck!

Oh, also to say that I have a particular soft spot for this 'naughty' boy despite very annoying and challenging behaviour in the past and also, sometimes, currently!

He's such an unusual sort of child and very intense and affectionate in his own sort of sideways way that I think he's going to grow into a really interesting person with the right guidance! So don't despair thinking that the world will think badly of him!

WithACatLikeTread · 24/04/2024 07:03

MsRosley · 24/04/2024 00:07

Jesus, that's a nasty comment.

Read her previous threads then you will understand.

Sunflowergirl1 · 24/04/2024 07:04

RodTheDodge · 23/04/2024 18:32

I mean this in nicest possible way -are you ok do you need support. The descriptions you’ve used for your child are very negative. Does he need extra help

I know said with good intent, but behaviour like this is not unusual and is often a phase which needs consistent and firm responses. Stop medicalising poor behaviour. This is what starts kids down the road of assessments that they have special needs and should not be done until far older

MadeofCheeese · 24/04/2024 07:07

I've had severe PND for nearly 2 years now.
My LO is lovely and happy and everyone loves her but 6 months ago I would have said that everything she did was against me and on purpose.
Since I have been starting to feel better, she has started saying mummy and wanting kisses and cuddles.
I think the situation was a negative feedback loop between the two of us.
Are you on any medication that could help?

Capmagturk · 24/04/2024 07:08

I think alot of it sounds like a sibling who has a new baby sister and is playing up for attention and a mum adjusting to having a toddler and baby and struggling a bit.

My middle child went through a similar phase she was three when my youngest was born. I was also exhausted and found it so so challenging on little sleep. I look back now 11 years later and can see I absolutely did have postnatal depression and it made me catastrophize and worry about things in the future that may not and never happened. She was always great at nursery, she was always high energy but well behaved. The cycle broke for us once I started getting better sleep (I did the baby whisperer when my son was 6 months) the days got brighter (he was born in winter) and we got out more and my mood improved. If you think you could have postnatal depression definitely reach out.

I have used fluoxetine and it helped my mood massively and just made me more laid back dealing with my children as at the time I was so easily irritated by normal behaviour that then didn't phase me, it stopped me lying awake at night with anxiety catastrophizing about things that may never happen and I just coped so much better. I was actually only on them for 8 months and have never needed to be since.

Just something else for you to consider, I hope things improve for you soon.

Sweetpeadreams · 24/04/2024 07:09

Sunflowergirl1 · 24/04/2024 07:04

I know said with good intent, but behaviour like this is not unusual and is often a phase which needs consistent and firm responses. Stop medicalising poor behaviour. This is what starts kids down the road of assessments that they have special needs and should not be done until far older

I disagree with this. Bad parents don't start three threads looking for advice, strategies and reading material. ND kids shouldn't be left to sink until they are older, just because seeing their behaviour makes you feel superior in your abilities.

Itislate · 24/04/2024 07:13

You need help for your own mental health - try to see a therapist.

willWillSmithsmith · 24/04/2024 07:15

beinghonestherenow · 23/04/2024 18:43

Thanks @TimeForTeaAndG . It’s hard as I’m not getting much niceness. I could deal with the horrible stuff if I got glimpses of a nice child but I don’t just now.

@Noicant what I’m saying is it just doesn’t work. He just doesn’t seem to care about consequences, anything really. I’m not convinced he loves me at all - I know everyone will say he does but I don’t see it.

My eldest son never cared about his stuff or consequences either. He was really hard work as a young child and I used to worry about the type of adult he would become. He’s in his twenties now and the nicest, sweetest, most loving son. As his reasoning abilities matured he simply grew out of the bad behaviour. Just keep on doing what you’re doing, make sure he always feels loved and secure, and he too will grow out of it (assuming, like my son, no ND).

Caiti19 · 24/04/2024 07:16

I've a cousin who was like this as a toddler. Possessive, grabby, impulse to destroy anything built by another child. He's now the sweetest, most engaging preteen. His parents did get play therapy for him, which worked wonders. Toned down the "alpha", taught turn-taking etc.

beinghonestherenow · 24/04/2024 07:16

That’s interesting @MadeofCheeese as I’m aware that since birth really I’ve taken behaviour personally which is stupid really.

Honestly, and I can’t stress this enough that I am not being rude or horrible but I don’t want to start getting DS diagnosed with anything, I don’t think I or DH need diagnosing with anything. I really do think that any ND he may have is pretty high functioning and I’m not going to be bothering already stretched health services insisting he gets a diagnosis I am not even sure he has or not.

A PP is right that HV services are practically non existent anyway.

I will ring the GP this morning for me. I’ll have to lie which I don’t like but I’m certainly not discussing my mental health with the receptionist!

OP posts:
beinghonestherenow · 24/04/2024 07:17

And - sorry - I don’t want and am not interested in therapy.

I have actually been following another thread on here where someone with a much older child with ADHD is struggling to get support and I note the last post on there (at the time of my reading) is someone of the belief that ‘that isn’t for me’ is rude. It isn’t.

OP posts:
SilverBranchGoldenPears · 24/04/2024 07:18

I am so sorry @beinghonestherenow
Some kids - just like some adults - are horrible. I think it’s ok to feel it and say it. It doesn’t have to be related to neurodivergency or anything. It can just be being deeply unpleasant.
It‘s not considered ok to dislike your child. But you are human and he is pushing buttons. If he has always been this way then I would, as you do, feel a sense of defeat.

My friend‘s son is (and was always) very similar to how your son sounds. I remember he slammed my child‘s fingers in a door repeatedly, laughing while my child was screaming. It makes me go cold thinking about it. And yet the perceived wisdom in places like MN is that either the child is ND (read autism / ADHD NOT psychopathy) and needs support or is just misunderstood. In my friend’s case she absolutely refused to be honest about what everyone else was seeing and feeling. Even while she was sleepless and her hair was falling out. Because society and MN wisdom is that all kids are good. This makes us feel like bad mothers when it is going wrong.
This is not fair or true. We all need to be honest about things.
I am sorry you are going through this. I’d be making a GP appointment just to have things recorded at the very least and to have it noted that you need support too and that you are not just blithely accepting this behaviour because it sounds like a slow moving car crash right now.

Partridgewell · 24/04/2024 07:20

OP, I have taught in the next village to where I live for years, and I have three kids of my own, so I have known kids as toddlers that I have then gone on to teach. I know many nightmare 3 year olds who have gone on to be perfectly nice, well-liked adults. Try not to awfulise - I know it's difficult when you're tired.

beinghonestherenow · 24/04/2024 07:22

Incidentally I also have a period - only the second one since having the baby - and so my hormones are probably still a bit all over the place and have been all week.

In many ways I feel MN is bad for my parenting as there are very much two camps on here; there’s the camp which scoff at gentle parenting and every time there is a thread about badly behaved children are vocal and strident in their belief that no child behaved badly before gentle parenting was a Thing. Then there are the gentle parents who tell you whatever approach you took was wrong.

I don’t like either approach particularly. I also don’t like the fixation on boundaries - they aren’t helpful because a boundary is only any use if the child adheres to it: when you set a boundary and the child ignores it as DS tends to it’s difficult. Sometimes in his more amiable moods he will be willing to listen and engage but other times he isn’t and enjoys the game it creates (yesterday with running off was a case in point.)

OP posts:
Donm999 · 24/04/2024 07:22

Hopefully you’ve found some useful advice in here.

With a SENCo hat on, I’d try these…

-Ask for meeting with preschool to understand exactly what this looks like there. Do they have any concerns? Can they refer/ signpost you anywhere?

-Contact the health visitor service. Again, they should be able to tell you about any local services you can access.

—Have you heard of portage? They can come into the home and support you. It’s for children with SEN, but don’t assume that means they have to have a formal diagnosis of something. If behaviour is that extreme it could arguably count as an SEN. In my experience, they often support parents around behaviour. https://www.portage.org.uk/support/

-What is his speech and language like? Any delay, concerns whatsoever? Children with language needs at his age can be more likely to lash out as they are struggling to understand and communicate verbally. Again, chat to your HV or preschool about how he is compared to norms for his age.

Good luck!

Portage Hub | National Portage Association

https://www.portage.org.uk/support/

beinghonestherenow · 24/04/2024 07:23

@Partridgewell thanks. Logically I know but when you’ve had a whole day of being (feels like) being deliberately goaded it just wears you down.

OP posts: