To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

[beinghonestherenow]

And I can see why, although he’s only 3. I’m hoping to god he changes but it’s not looking hopeful.

He is really … unpleasant. I never hear him laugh unless it’s this horrible cackle (which goes right through me tbh) when he’s doing something he’s not supposed to.

The more annoyed or stern someone is with him the more he finds it funny.

He is aggressive and bites kicks and pushes, snatches toys, literally the second another child shows an interest in a toy he grabs it. I keep thinking this is getting better but then we’re back to square one.

I am worried about the impact it’s having on my marriage (I’m close to leaving tbh as I can’t cope) and our other child.

leaving marriage?or and kids?

I think the first thing the GP - rightly - would ask would be about nursery and any concerns there.

I have been reading about PDA this evening and it really doesn’t describe DS at all. He doesn’t have a particular desire for control that is notably different from any other three year old.

I am not saying DS has no additional needs and I am not saying he has. I am saying that at the moment there simply isn’t enough to say one way or another.

@determinedtomakethiswork it is something I’ve wondered about.

Of course I do love him but I wonder if it is PND that’s been festering for many years. I’m anxious about ADs because of weight gain, tiredness (I’m already struggling a lot with this) and other things - which ones did you have?

I agree op. You wouldn't be human if you were not stressed out by this. And you wouldn't be on her if you didn't care. The whole point of your post is you don't want him to not be liked.

Hi OP @beinghonestherenow there’s loads of good advice on here… just to add to the mix this book.. ‘how to talk so little kids will listen 2-7years old’ was really helpful for us. It is an easy, quick read and gives some great practical advice for how to literally do what it says on the cover! Might be worth a try. Good luck - remember, everything is a phase at this age xxx

also agree with the two posters above - you wouldn’t be posting if you didn’t care. It’s a tough position to be in. Be kind to yourself too xxx

You might be expecting too much of both him and yourself given his young age. If the behaviour is really challenging you also need to be prioritising your own mental health so you get through without too much anger, which will only make things worse. He will get easier.

I also found the explosive child book helpful. When I started to see DS's behaviour as lagging skills rather than outright 'badness' i felt more able to deal with things. He's now ten and lovely a lot of the time but it hasn't been easy, particularly as I had a "good" first child and thought it was all down to my excellent parenting.

Is he high energy? With mine, sleep is essential. Also food. He would exist on sugar given the choice. And endless reserves of patience. We can get into argumentative cycles and at that point I leave the room until I feel calmer.

Also look at aha parenting - she has some great tips for family life etc.

You need to enforce strict boundaries. Children need and thrive with boundaries and discipline.

Hoping it will get better and he’ll grow out of it is useless. As he gets older it will just compound - you need to set the foundations now and stop dithering with woe is me behaviour, if you don’t it’ll all fall down as he grows up

I’m sorry you’re going through this, @beinghonestherenow.
I know a woman (now) who was an a darling 3yrold, but has grown into an absolutely awful woman. Miserable, makes fun of others’ looks and she’s a complete & sloppy mess. Rude, sarcastic, disrespectful. She’s a relative and I avoid her at all costs.
I know another man (now) who was a monster as child. He wore steel-toed shoes and thought it hilarious to kick people as hard as he could in their shins. He pushed his sister backwards into a glass table and sent her to hospital for 30+ stitches. Picked fights with boys both bigger and smaller. As an adult, he’s calm, sweet and funny. Has two children of his own who are adorable. And he’s a teacher, well loved by his students.
I don’t know why children behave like they do or why they grow up so differently, but it’s hard damn work and it’s frustrating and exhausting.
I hope you can find some respite and hold on for a few more years - and that your little boy grows into the sweet and sensitive man you hope he’ll be. Sending love.

It sounds like the nursery has not been expressing concerns to you about your son, which does suggest to me that they have "seen it all before" and that the behavior may not be as extreme as you seem to believe. I would start off by approaching the nursery and talking to them about what their view is.

Just wondering why it would be years before he would be assessed?
I have a 4 year-old and he's being assessed in June when he will be 4 1/2. He has similar traits to your son. Doesn't seem to care about things, takes toys from kids, will hit if not getting his way, etc.
I took him to our paediatrician and insisted he be put on the list for an autism assessment.

Also are there groups in your area that can help? I joined a couple ND parent groups that meet up a few times a month
Both with and without kids
It's also nice because you don't get judged on the behaviour of your child as everyone else is in a similar situation.

Sounds like my DS at 3. He does have ADHD but his behavioral issues at that age were linked to hearing, we found out after a lot of trips to the gp! Also poor sleep. We had his tonsils and adenoids out and he was a different child within the month.

Unless you have an issue, I think you need to take him to see a specialist.

@beinghonestherenow I'm not trying to push you to do anything. I would say that a lot of your posts suggest at least a delay, if not a disorder, in social skills.

DD1 has ASD. She also has a brain malformation and learning disabilities. At the age your DS is she was incredibly hard work (still is). No parenting worked. Preschool staff were patronising and rolled their eyes when took her there and I said that I was concerned they left a door open because she would run out of it. That afternoon, they said 'I see what you mean...' The traditional advice of waving cheerfully and saying 'Bye!' when a child runs off had no impact whatsoever. She just kept going.

She had no impulse control. Still has very little at 18, tbh. When I read about your DS, I remember those days.

Please don't think that anyone is going to pick up his ND traits and approach you. DD1 was under a specialist paediatrician whose special interest was in ASD and neurodiversity. She wasn't diagnosed with ASD until she was 15 because she was 'complicated'. With DD2 I raised the flag at 3. It took until she was 9 (and 3 different schools) before anyone listened. She was 11 when she was diagnosed. DD3 is 15 and has been on the waiting list 18 months.

Your DS needs you to be 'that parent'. He needs you to start making some noise. You need to still the voice that says this is your fault and say 'my DS is not ok.'

Do the parenting course. Even if it's no good, it's a few hours of your life. I hit a road block with DD2 because I hadn't done a parenting course. Referral to CAMHS rejected. I did the course, which was pointless because I'd been doing ASD parenting for 15 years by that point. But now, I can write in capital letters on every damned referral form 'Barnardo's Cygnet course completed on DD/MM/YY.' and they can't use it to reject the form.

If your DS is ND he'll be ND with or without a diagnosis. The difference is that his self esteem will be absolutely shot if he's continually characterised as a mean, unloving, temper filled boy, when it sounds like he's actually drowning socially.

I agree that you sound like you have PND and it is probably affecting your parenting and the way you’re interacting with your DS more than you realise. I know because I had it with one of mine. It clouds everything and makes everything seem awful, even things that haven’t happened or that I don’t know how they’ll turn out.

The way you repeatedly mention yourself as a possible “reason” for his behaviour makes it sound like you do blame yourself. It might also relate to why you’re so reluctant to reach out to any professional for help. You seem to have already decided that it is pointless to try to get any help and you are justifying it with reasons X/Y/Z but it comes across as you just not wanting to try. Again I think this is due to PND. You also seem very concerned about what other people may or may not think.

Logically there can only be a few possibilities:

1. his behaviour is normal for a 3yo you just have to wait for it to pass. It sounds like you don’t think his behaviour is normal though.
2. his behaviour is not normal for a 3yo and it is because of a “reason”

• Neurodiversity - you don’t think this is the case but either way you have ruled out wanting to pursue this as a possibility. I do find it a bit odd that you are so quick to shut this down though and seem overly preoccupied by worrying that you’ll seem neurotic. Who cares? You can’t get chucked off an NHS autism waiting list because “mother seems neurotic”. If anything, your reluctance to pursue any help or assessments is more unusual than a parent who badgers the GP a few times for a referral.
• lacking boundaries/consequences - doesn’t sound like it’s the case here as you have been trying this and say it doesn’t work
• something else - ?? this could be the effects of PND or attention seeking due to new sibling or whatever the incident was in February.

Is there another possibility that you’re worried about?

Sounds like pathological demand avoidance (PDA) look it up and see what you think. There are strategies you can try

Update to just add though that it sounds like you’ve already considered PDA and it doesn’t fit. That doesn’t mean it can’t be non-PDA autism or ADHD or some other kind of SEN. I find people always suggest PDA, I’m not saying it doesn’t exist (my ASD child does fit the profile quite well) but it’s over-suggested now IME.

Also I forgot to mention the toy snatching thing does sound normal. My middle one is nearly 3 and does this. She will have no interest in a toy until another child wants it 🙄 will wail and throw a huge strop until it’s her turn and then doesn’t even care about the toy and won’t play with it. It’s like she just doesn’t want anyone else to have anything out of principle 🫤 this behaviour massively ramped up when she got a new baby sibling..

Can you afford a private assessment?Functioning levels are a bit of a misnomer. If he's ND then these behaviours you're seeing are probably him overwhelmed. My eldest DS went through a phrase like this. He's Autistic like all my DC. It started at about 20 months, there were various different stages, the behaviour wasn't the same for years, but he did struggle a lot till he was about 5. Massive sensory issues with clothes, being in just undies at home helps him cope. With sounds and bussy places and bright places. We had to do a lot less for a while. If he's ND and now masking at nursery that means he's letting the overwhelm out at home instead. The laughter isnt that he think's its funny, my DS used to do this. It was a sign he wasn't coping, like hysteria but laughing instead. The biggest thing for DS was more sleep, he absolutely can't cope with missed sleep. The next biggest thing for him was reducing sensory overwhelm by doing less, going to quieter places instead, staying home more, getting some exercise but in a way that didn't involve lots of people. It might be worth starting to make notes on his behaviour and seeing if you can see any patterns, see what he's reacting too.

Try and keep in mind he's 3, he's not unpleasant and unloving and aggressive he is overwhelmed and struggling badly and he is 3, which isn't necessarily a good age even without anything else going on. Try to come at it from a more neutral place at least, when you feel the negative and catastrophing thoughts try to remind yourself that behaviour is communication for young children especially. His behaviour is telling you he is completely overwhelmed and struggling. He's not functioning highly at the moment because if he was you wouldn't be seeing this behaviour. If you can't get out of the mindset where you're catastrophing his behaviour into a life time of being unpleasant and unwanted it might be a good idea to talk to your GP. This is really hard, unbelievably hard at times and it sounds like you as well as your son need some extra support.

Do you have a new baby?

You are talking about DS as if he was a hulking 13 year old - he’s still a baby really

My oldest DS was like this, because he was Autistic and overwhelmed. Now everyone loves him, says he's such a gentle, nice, caring kid. He has a lot friends, every school teacher he comes in contact with loves him and they rave to me about him. It was unbelievably hard and yes I was worried about the future, but most of that worry was for him and his future. If all you can think about your 3 year old, your very young child, is that he's unpleasant and aggressive and you don't want to be around him please go and see your doctor. This isn't a normal reaction to your child's struggles. Even if you haven't had another child since its perfectly possible you still have PND.

Please please talk to your health visitor. I've solo parented a 3yo and a baby while my DH worked night shifts and its so so hard. Most of our HV services closed in covid and nothing really officialy opened up again, it's daunting to do, in our area you have to leave a voicemail and someone phones you back but once in the system I found it really helped.
For us, we sailed through the terrible twos with no problems but three was horrific. He's 4 now and absolutely lovely (most of the time). You dont need to seek a "diagnosis" to tell the HV you're struggling, they can signpost you to other support. For me it was a weekly group with with an early years worker, with other mums that had been referred by HV (group was not advertised anywhere). Some weeks I'd sit and cry, some weeks the early years lady would look after toddler, baby or both for an hour while I got a rant about how I felt, some weeks it would be like a normal playgroup. She could observe behaviours, there was no judgement, told me most of the challenging behaviour was age and stage and gave play based strategies for dealing with it.
We also had the HV come to the house a couple of times, again for support. If there's a homestart in your area, again they can just provide a listening ear and signpost any groups that could help. I've not seen your other threads so am solely going off what you say here, but it does get better and in all honesty I think 3 is far too young to write off personality. The laughing you mentioned is really annoying but I do remember my 3yo going all out to hurt / get negative reactions and laughing about it. At 4 he's so loving and gives the fiercest hugs and sweetest kisses. Understanding age and stage really helped me the lady used to apologise for dismissing things as age and stage, but I was grateful it could be seen as this because like you, I was scared I'd fucked my kids up somehow.

I haven't read the full thread but I've read OPs responses.

You should contact your child social services early help and advice services. Check your local authority website. Much more likely to be actually helpful than a GP at this stage.

I also strongly disagree that asking for professional help will label you as pushy or neurotic as you seem to think. People will see that you are worried and consistently trying to get support. Although the help won't be immediate I am sure you will be registering your concerns at an early stage.

Hi OP. I just wanted to say, you sound completely burnt out. It's very possible you have depression and there is no shame in that whatsoever - millions do. Please don't be afraid to reach out to your GP. Antidepressants really can help - something like Sertraline will rarely cause weight gain. It just takes away the anxiety and despair so that you can cope.

Is there no free counselling you can be referred for by your GO? Even if it's online, that's fine. You need to carve out a space in the week where you can just feel heard, with no judgement. Your GP might be able to refer you fairly quickly, or at least tell you about some helplines in the interim. Don't hold back in the GP. If you feel desperate, tell them. If you don't feel you are taken seriously, go back until you are, or see another GP.

Your posts read as if you are 'stuck'. It's very possible that an strong transference process is going on here - ie. you son is transferring his uncontrollable anger / frustration / sense of hopelessness / sense that nobody can help - into you. The way you are feeling is actually the way he is feeling. With some space, you may be able to interpret your sense of hopelessness as the key to understanding tour son's feelings - which he can't make sense if at all because he's only 3! He can only act out. But you can talk it out and begin to make sense that way. You need to talk to people in real life - be open and accept help. Tih are internalising a lot at thd moment. You don't need to be alone with this. You do sound resistant to help, as if you're so overwhelmed you've given up. This is probably how your son feels too. If you want him to begin to accept help, you need to do the same. You are already reaching out on here and that's a great thing. It's a first step.

I know you can't see the wood for the trees at the moment, but really, children have all sorts of phases. Things will NOT be like this forever. You are doing your best. Be kind to yourself. Stop blaming yourself. Keep talking - to friends, a counsellor / therapist (if at all possible), even the Samaritans if you need to. You will all come though this. I wish you the very best.

Ok so the first thing to consider is is it nd?

Ask the nursery senco to observe him for neurodiversity concerns. They are trained to spot signs.

There a online questionnaire called mchatr
that's very good. See what he scores.

If it comes up looking like he is ring your health visitor, describe your worst day, tell them what score he got and what senco said ask for a referral to paediatrician.

Why is it better to do it early? Better support in place sooner, not relying on school to do it (who may be good but may not be) and shorter wait times in under fives.

Ok so behaviours

So don't worry about the laughter etc it doesn't necessarily mean how we mean it.

Try to have a consistent routine everyday so he know what to expect. Clear boundaries on things so if he gets a hour screen time everyday keep to it.
Pick your battles so let most things go (for now) focus on the extreme behaviours- hitting, throwing etc. Have one consequence , we did a timeout sit on the stairs for three minutes but we sat wit him - why? Well firstly he wouldn't have sat alone and secondly the purpose of the consequence was to help him regulate which wouldn't have happened if he was alone. We sat with him gave him chance to take a minute. No talking or playing. Everytime. If we could see a behaviour was about to happen we would give a warning, if you do that there will be a time out giving him opportunity to stop.

Lots of praise and attention for good behaviour.

Lots of opportunity to burn energy. Park, soft play etc. some screen time If it helps him but not constant.

Manage his environment, if you can see he's getting overwhelmed distract him, do something to soothe him . Have a few favourite things he loves that he doesn't do all the time to offer if he's struggling to manage his emotions. Play with him lots to role model the behaviours you want to see.

I think this sort of delving and probing into what might be the root cause of his behaviour is possibly the most helpful thing you can do at this stage? Behaviour is a child’s way of communicating their needs and emotions when they lack the capacity to verbalise it. What emotion is at the root of these behaviours? Is there anyone who knows him well who you can discuss this with? It’s always helpful to bounce ideas off someone.

Once you’ve thought that through, you can then try to address it with strategies. E.g. if it’s jealousy of the baby, can you start love bombing him on a daily basis, working some 1to1 time into your daily routine, even if it’s just 10mins or something short and achievable?

Your next post about PND is also interesting because that’s what came to my mind when reading your posts. Surely the potential side effects of anti-depressants are worth the risk if it helps you resolve this situation?

Another thing I’d say is don’t be dismissive of parenting classes, I’ve seen them have transformative effects on families.

Lastly, I completely understand your frustrations at the repeated suggestion of neurodiversity and agree that you’re unlikely to get a diagnosis so young, and even less unlikely to get the sort of support posters are imagining. But one poster’s suggestion of parenting as if he is neurodiverse was a good one - which is why I think parenting classes might be really helpful.

I’m sorry you’re going through this, it sounds really tough.