To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

[beinghonestherenow]

And I can see why, although he’s only 3. I’m hoping to god he changes but it’s not looking hopeful.

He is really … unpleasant. I never hear him laugh unless it’s this horrible cackle (which goes right through me tbh) when he’s doing something he’s not supposed to.

The more annoyed or stern someone is with him the more he finds it funny.

He is aggressive and bites kicks and pushes, snatches toys, literally the second another child shows an interest in a toy he grabs it. I keep thinking this is getting better but then we’re back to square one.

I am worried about the impact it’s having on my marriage (I’m close to leaving tbh as I can’t cope) and our other child.

Really feeling for you OP. My older child was hideous as a 3 year old. It eventually got better after he turned 4. Reading Janet Lansbury, Laura Markham was got me through, and the Whole Brain Child book, got me through - yes they are gentle parenting people but forget about that term, what I really like is they go into detail about what is going on in your child's brain development and how all this behaviour is about feelings, so you can't fix the behaviour without fixing the feelings. And I found all their writings massively helpful in helping me manage my own emotions, which is really the most important thing when you're feeling so bleak and overwhelmed. Here's one post to start with https://www.janetlansbury.com/2010/04/no-bad-kids-toddler-discipline-without-shame-9-guidelines/.

She's written loads about kids reacting to siblings. This will definitely be what's going on with your son, alongside him just being a regular horrible 3 year old. So hard when you haven't got any outside help. Sending lots of solidarity and good luck.

The thing is you might not be depressed but just you’re overwhelmed.

Do you have any family support like your mum or dad close by?

We all need a break from things.

Could you up his nursery hours?

I have no one. I am a bit overwhelmed sorry.

Janet Lansbury has some good ideas but not sure of some others

yes you did. And I was really only saying sometimes when you stretch them they respond better than you hope. In my example I didn’t get exactly what I had asked but I thought the response nevertheless had a degree of aplomb that I probably wouldn’t have got if I hadn’t suggested the thanking bit. In other words, it’s good to give them expectations to move into. I was agreeing.

Hes only three. He'll most likely be a completely different kid by the time he starts school. Especially if you're a good consistent parent

I am not going to keep at this after this post. I understand why after some really awful posts you are not feeling very receptive to suggestions.

Baking and painting were off-the-top-of-my-head suggestions, which is why I followed them with 'whatever'.

No, one hour of walking in the woods will not help. A consistent, weekly session every single weekend of mummy and DS time, which is sacred and prioritised, would make a big difference, but it will take time and it will need you to be mentally healthy because he will kick out, literally or figuratively, at first.

I'm going to leave it there. I am sorry that you have had such a rough time which has left you feeling so defensive. You sound like a lovely mum who wants to do right by both her children and who has been put in an impossible situation by an absent DH. I truly wish you all the very best. It will get better .

He does sound a bit like mine, literally did not give a fuck about being told off (by me or her dad) wasn’t aggressive towards other kids at all though, would actively avoid them. I had PND and took everything personally as well.

She has always been and still is extremely headstrong (if she didn’t want to do an activity at nursery she would just look at it and walk away), bear in mind she would constantly quote her teacher and want to look at pictures of her teacher, literally adored the woman but still couldn’t bring herself to do something she didn’t want to do.

Similar with illness as well, she never complains, seems you only find out after she’s gone for an extra long sleep that she was poorly never answered questions until she was 4 (which I think is normal).

We really had to keep calm, keep strong boundaries, “explosive child” helped us figure out what her trigger points were (it’s directed at much older children but by god was it helpful in clarifying our understanding). She was a little monster at home tbh, just a ball of fury. By 4 she was 90% ok to good. Still headstrong but much easier to communicate with.

I honestly don’t think he sounds exceptionally terrible (I obviously have a erm a low bar). Dd did need more intensive parenting than some other kids. I even asked her very experienced teachers about ADHD, which they said no to.I do think a part of it is just personality and partly is just the lack of executive control they have at that age.

To reassure you at 3 I was crying in the bathroom quite a bit, at 4 DD was positively delightful most days. It’s hard, really hard, but you do your bit and trust that he’ll grown into it.

I also found being silly really helped. After an utter screaming meltdown with snot just flowing down her nose I said,” I think a snail has moved into your nose, come out snail, you can’t live there!”(I was furious by the way so I was trying to calm myself and her). It gave both of us an out from the anger. It’s really hard to exit anger but you need to sometimes build a golden bridge for your child to retreat over especially when they aren’t the type to back down.

I have only read the Op posts so this may have been mentioned. I believe you said communication is tricky, as in you say or ask something and he replies with something unrelated. This could be a speech and language issue which can lead to a lot of frustration in a child. The taking of toys impulse type behaviour could stem from this. This might be easier to get help for and your husband might agree that it's worth checking so that it doesn't hold your son back when he starts school.

You could also ask the nursery what consequences they have for him when he bites or snatches and try to do the same at home.

One of my children displayed unlikeable traits as a child and though he was very young was tall for his age, so perceived to be older and should know better. I recall parents tutting and complaining loudly about his behaviour and being very embarrassed, still am tbh. Years later, in his teens, he was diagnosed with DCD and has many autistic traits.

This tricky phase will pass and you will both get into a good routine again. Be gentle on yourself and your son, focus on the positives and getting through each day is a win.

OP, I know you are getting frustrated here, but you are posting on the internet! It stands to reason you will get a few odd responses, but the vast majority of people are genuinely trying and posting in good faith.

To frame it another way... what is it you want people to tell you?

Talking about your mental health to a GP or professional is not something to be ashamed of or embarrassed about. I don't know why you think it would be. A receptionist will be hearing people call about this kind of thing countless times a day. That's their job! A GP will see women in your situation - with anxiety / PND / whatever the case may be - day in day out.

Again, if you expect your DS to engage with support to enable change, you need to be open to that yourself. GPs / SS / referrals systems are not perfect, you're right, but it's not a reason not to try.

Many people on here will have gone through everything and worse with their children. Many people have had very dark episodes in life. When you're in it, you do feel hopeless and defensive to accepting help. That's all part of it. But people do get help and they frequently are glad they did in retrospect. You are talking on here to hundreds of strangers. Why not seek a professional - what do you have to lose by giving it a go?

I’d up his nursery hours. He’ll be fine. You’re not. You need a break. You’ve got no other help.

Personally think more nursery for him instead of an anti depressants for you is the way to go.

You need a break. You’re not depressed. You just need some time to calm down and come back to this refreshed.

He’ll be absolutely fine at nursery with more hours.

I had one like this. He was an absolute nightmare.. shunned by other children because he hurt them. My other child couldn't have friends over because the 3 year old would literally throw furniture at them. He deliberatly tried to kill me by laying traps, and no punishment worked.. in fact he revelled in the punishment. You get the gist..

After a long series of appointments, suggestions about drugs I could put him on and other pointless advice, I started to unravel when it had become a problem, and concluded it was when he was 12-18 months or so.

This coincided with the time he started eating more mainstream food, and after much research, time, and effort I narrowed it down to sodium benzoate and artificial colours. After hours reading ingrediants in supermarket aisles I found alternatives and excluded them from his diet.

It took about 3 months for him to come down, but he was a completely different child when he did.
There is always an explanation, particularly if he wasn't like this as a baby.

Have hope, and do your own research. No one knows your son as well as you do.

I have to say the thing that really turned it around for us was me being able to stay calm. It made such a big difference because I had a much calmer response so Dd wasn’t primed for a fight either. I also apologise for losing my temper and now DD will volunteer an apology when she’s been misbehaving (this took about a year of me being willing to apologise before she even considered apologising for anything).

I was actually endorsing and you took it as criticism.

Maybe take a step back now and read through the thread when it isn’t constantly pinging new suggestions at you. You can take what you think might work and ignore the rest.

DS was assessed last year at age 10. I'd had concerns about DS socially for a long time - I brought it up at every parents evening - but he masked successfully in school.

When he was referred and I commented that I wish it had been done sooner we were told he wouldn't have met the criteria for assessment any sooner because his behaviours were not completely age inappropriate. Obviously what was within the norm at three or four isn't at nine.

3 was shit for us. I worked FT and if I’d been at home with him all the time I would have really, really struggled. For what it’s worth mine is older now and is in the process of being assessed for a couple of things. I found (and still do) that it goes in phases of being really hard then calming down for a bit. It’s so difficult to see a way forward when you’re in a shit phase so i have no advice other than hang on in there, this too shall pass

OP, your posts always make me so sad because I can hear how hopeless you feel. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Some kids are hard. My goddaughter – who I am involved with very closely and lived with for a few years – sounds very much like your son and she is so challenging to parent. For her there was an underlying medical reason and getting that sorted, plus adopting some different parenting strategies that go against the grain of current thinking, have really helped but still not fixed it entirely and honestly, I take my hat off to her parents because I don't know that I could do it (although of course I could because, as you know, you just have to).

Anyway. No advice but I did want to pick up on one thing – you mentioned being concerned about going on anti-depressants because of the weight gain and fatigue. I went on fluoxetine for severe PND (which gave me a lot of similar feelings of defeat and hopelessness that I can hear in your posts, if I'm honest) and although it did give me fatigue for a few weeks, it was manageable, and the long-term effects were life-changing. And I lost weight while on them.

Wishing you the best of luck.

Parent of two ND children here and to me it doesn’t sound like ND, I agree with OP.

also having had the assessments there’s fuck all they can do if it’s mild and they’re meeting their academic milestones.

Sounds like OP would get no help at all, anyway, even if DS was assessed. He’s as bright as a button from the way she’s described him, no delays at all.

OP is already exhausted. She has a new baby? Why bother with it now?

OP is right to wait for school and see how things are then.

Mumsnet AIBU (and the internet generally) can be brutal when you’re depressed/ have serious real life worries.

Better turn off the screen if it isn’t helping.

3 is hard it will get better.

I would say add as much extra time as humanly possible to bed time and up food and drink intake.

For mental health OP the best thing I did was the Zoe Nutrition program. It’s been life changing. You’re probably not up to doing that right now but what you put in your body has a huge effect on how you feel day to day.

I found out I was low in bifidobacteria which modulates the gut brain axis and is anti-inflammatory for the whole body.I’ve been supplementing ever since. I feel so much more balanced.

Bifidobacteria should make up 80% of a baby’s gut but if you don’t have much as a mum yourself you can’t pass it on.

likewise if you have a c section you’re less likely to have your baby colonised with bifidobacteria compared to vaginal delivery.

it decreases over time but at 3 your little one should still have plenty.

There are early questions now about if low bifidobacteria is related to autism. It’s only a theory, not yet tested.

bifidobacteria also protective of developing allergies later in life.

Sorry going massively off topic here but Zoe has changed my life, plus bifidobacteria supplementation. For mental health I really recommend both.

What I also forced myself to do was at bedtime, say out loud to DS 2 or 3 things I'd enjoyed about the day with him or things he did well etc - obviously he didn't know I was racking my brain for things or that I was consciously thinking about this.

But saying something like 'night night, you did so well today with that puzzle, let's have another go tomorrow, you are really good at finding all the pieces oh and thank you for finding that book it was a great choice'

This helped remind me it wasn't all awful and reinforces some positive behaviour.

Is there a friend or fellow nursery parent you can arrange a playdate with so you can get some genuine feedback on how he plays and behaves in other settings and with other people, without you around? (I think a family member would be too close, and either pretend it's fine enough or brag about how great they are with kids). You mentioned you don't think the nursery sees everything.

I think it is just jealousy from a baby coming into the picture and he's taking it out on you personally if he's fine with his dad and everywhere else. Could be masking, but probably not if he's at home fine with other parent.

There are major problems in my extended family with people favouring their second child over their first, they don't even seem to realise they do it and now it involves teenagers it's about drugs and getting blackout drunk and disappearing off and no one knowing where they are. Started out incredibly innocently seeming with only the baby getting family pics at Christmas while other child was left to own devices. The good child vs bad child reinforces itself as the "bad" child becomes progressively worse over time and the other can do no wrong (supposedly).

Also have you looked up attachment styles, sounds like it might potentially be anxious-avoidant or fearful-avoidant.

I had the same worries as you re antidepressants, avoided them for years and years because I absolutely wouldn't have coped with weight gain.

I went on Citalopram in January and I'm so glad I did. No weight gain, but my mood is just SO much better, it's remarkable. I am so much less stressed and snappy with my DD as a result too.

Honestly, I really would give them a try. When I rang the drs and said it was about mental health, they got me in the next day. The dr also suggested he put me down for CBT therapy alongside it too. It was a 6 week course via phone and I could chose the day and times.

But really, for me the gamechanger was the antid's.

Oh, and if you enjoy your wine like I do, I've had no problems there either.

I really would go on some antidepressants for a bit, it won't change your DC's behaviour but they will make you feel so much better which definitely makes the tantrums etc for manageable.

That’s interesting. When I went for the parent interview for my DD’s ASD apt (she was 8 at the time) the questions focused very much on her behaviours age 4 to 5. I was told that is standard for the ADI interview.

As it happens, I didn’t have real concerns until she 6, and I do still kick myself for not pushing hard then (school told me she was “fine”, no concerns there) as when my DD had a severe breakdown at 8, I was told that there was a 2 year pathway for ASD/ADHD assessments, and I kept thinking “We would be there by now if I had got her put on it 2 years ago!”.

As it was, she was diagnosed within 7 months of the referral going in.

The thing is with the OP, she has concerns right now. Waiting for reception to see how things go (and it is often year 1 when issues become more apparent, as reception is still so play based) means that things might get a lot worse and then there will still be a wait of years or more if she waits for the NHS.

A SALT assessment could also be requested now & not take quite as long, and things like hearing tests don’t take so many years either.

Everything changes, nothing stays the same. Neither of my children (early 20s) are how they were when they were 3, 8, 12 or 18. Yes, there are some basic personality qualities that remain the same but their behaviour has changed. DS was vile at various stages and was a VERY challenging toddler who I found hard to like at times.

Try and praise anything your DS does that is remotely positive, even if it is just drinking fine from his sippy cup. Find something, anything that is ok and praise it. Praise what he does, not who he is. Start small and see where it goes.

Hang in there @beinghonestherenow . Get help if you need it.