SIL and BILs parenting style - is this okay or AIBU?

[shootingstar001]

Me and DH recently went on a short break with his sister and her husband.They have 2 children 2 and 5.

we live really far away so obviously we don’t see them super regularly but when we are all together we’ll do something with them for longer stretch of quality time like a trip or mini break.

we’ve both noticed before that they don’t seem to ever discipline their kids or say no - this is obviously a conscious choice they’ve made together. I’m aware that a ‘gentle parenting’ style is a bit more of modern choice but to me the complete lack of boundaries was really visible and really affected us and everyone around us. We both found it quite shocking especially in public settings like going for dinner etc. They seemed a bit oblivious but me and DH felt really tense by the end as there was always an ‘incident’ or two everyday. It did sort of ruin the end of the holiday.

Few of things that happened (sorry some of these are bit gross)

• Allowed their 2 yr old DS to wee in the shared villa pool
• Allowed 2 year old to poo in a public spaces (not in toilet)- pub garden/public park etc
• Allowed both kids to play a game throwing large rocks and pebbles at people walking by
• Their 2 year old is also going through a phase of punching - at one point wandering down some narrow packed touristy streets just windmilling around punching people walking by. BIL just stood passively and watched. The boy then had a massive crying tantrum when another tourist told him to stop. BIL comforted him about the ‘nasty man’
• Allowing 5 year DD to scream continuously in high pitched tone in restaurants (happened several times) - going through a phase of thinking it’s funny - both didn’t tell her to stop. DH did gently tell her a few times that we weren’t enjoying in perhaps other eating dinner might not like it either. Both parents said nothing.
• A lot of tantrums/fake crying - no intervention/words.

We never had kids so I’m really aware that I might not ‘get it’ - because of this we both feel that questioning someone parenting style might be a bit of a d**k move but it does really marr the time we spend with them.

Do we say something or just ride it out until the kids are a bit older and it’s everything is just a bit easier?

Really don’t want to damage my relationship with my SIL and BIL but also starting to dread family time with them. Advice please!

I know 2 sets of parents like this but it wasn’t a conscious parenting choice for them, they just seem absolutely terrified of saying no to their kids or enforcing any rules or boundaries. They were scared of the tantrums when the children were toddlers and it just carried on because tantrums don’t stop if this is how you’re parented. It has resulted in very very difficult children. They are stroppy, moody, scream and cry over any minor thing that offends them. They struggle to get on with other kids because other kids do minor things that are just the end of the world to these kids. It’s a recipe for disaster. If I were you, I would avoid hanging out with them as much as humanly possible.

A 2 year old is not a baby and that kind of thinking does not help them.

Thanks for everyones feedback, it's good to get a perspective from other people especially parenting. Our feelings at the time felt quite strong that the line from 'letting them express themselves' has been massively crossed into letting them do whatever they want/lack of parenting/lack of awareness for others but it's easy to question yourself with these things when you aren't the parents!

Sorry I've used the term gentle parenting when permissive parenting is the correct one (didn't really know, SIL and BIL haven't vocalised their style as any one particular thing)

@coxesorangepippin We do try and say things and the greater family like MIL, AIL do definitely make a point of firmly telling them off when in a larger group setting.
I have told DD 5 off on several different occasions for the shrieking/wailing thing she things does that she is thinks really hilarious but think I find it the most difficult as I'm not a mother/not SIL's blood relative.

I think some of the comments on this thread about them being abusive/neglectful and should be reported are way too much though - I want to stress that they do provide a loving, affection, safe environment and their children are cared for. Incidents like the rock throwing was super worrying but from their perspective, but in their heads they are approaching it from a place of 'just let them express themselves and figure it out themselves' and they aren't going to let their kids come to harm. I do 100% agree though this is problematic, super flawed and concerning. I do worry about the kids in terms of struggling in the world going forward - you can't just do whatever the hell you like, life doesn't work that way.

As we live far away it's hard to limit contact otherwise we will be missing the kids growing up and there is a lot of pressure on us to make the effort as we were the ones that moved far away. Agree with everyone that the next step is that we won't be doing any more holidays though - the one before that was really stressful also. It's doesn't feel like we are making good memories when we are finding it stressful.

See this is such a problem with people not understanding 'gentle parenting'. Gentle parenting still involves having boundaries, teaching right and wrong and understanding what is acceptable. This sounds like they have justo opted out of parenting altogether. Such a shame because those poor children are the ones who have to deal with the consequences (and you of course or anyone else around).
If I were you, I'd have a conversation but avoid blaming the children, focus on what is being allowed to happen. Alternatively just keep your distance because they may not be open to hearing criticism.

They're shit parents. I would refuse any more holidays and be honest - "The way you parent your children makes them really unpleasant to be around, sorry".

That all sounds horrendous! I definitely wouldn't be going away with them again!

I think you should explain, when another trip is suggested, that you have found it very stressful to be with them and not enjoyed the break. Give them some examples and emphasise that it is their reaction (or lack thereof) that you have found difficult. Some of these behaviours are dangerous and this should be explained, even to a two year old. The screaming is unpleasant to everyone around and they could be trying to distract the child and teach them other ways to amuse themselves. They may be offended but they can choose what to do if they still want to spend time with you.

if this post had come from an actual parent i would have been a little more forgiving,

Why? Non-parents are perfectly capable of recognising appalling parenting. You don't have to be a parent to know that standing at the side of a swimming pool and weeing into it is poor behaviour and needs to be recognised and such and dealt with by the parent.

Dear god. That's not parenting at all. I'd keep away if I were you.

I wonder if they will find it funny when the kids get older and get into trouble.

All fun and games until someone throws a rock back at them.

I don't understand this - plenty of children are out of nappies at two! I'm way past this stage, but I thought the latest advice is to start potty training as early as possible?

Yes plenty of 2 year olds are toilet trained. But you see on here people who still see 2 year olds as babies incapable of understanding a no.

And this patenting style doesn't always end up with very poor boundaries and entitlement later on in childhood. Sometimes the child develops extreme anxiety because they don't know how they are expected to behave, can not make friends and are always doubting their judgement. I know one child who was brought up like this and is actually riddled with self doubt as an adult. It did her no benefit what so ever.

@Pastryface and @NoisySnail I don't see two year olds as babies! And mine understood 'no' perfectly at that age. It depends if just turned two or almost three I guess. Mine got it around three, and still was not reliable until 3 and a half. Well within normal range according to NHS. I'm just saying that not being toilet trained at 2 isn't a red flag to me. Children get it at different stages. The rest is. At 2, the kid of a lovely mum friend did this in the swimming pool, she was mortified. She is a very good and present mum with very well behaved kids now they're older.

And to be clear, I would have stopped mine from going in the pool (obviously!) and would have been extremely apologetic.

or for longer!

Incidents like the rock throwing was super worrying but from their perspective, but in their heads they are approaching it from a place of 'just let them express themselves and figure it out themselves' and they aren't going to let their kids come to harm. I do 100% agree though this is problematic, super flawed and concerning. I do worry about the kids in terms of struggling in the world going forward - you can't just do whatever the hell you like, life doesn't work that way.

Out of interest (though I think I already know the answer to this!) how would your BIL/SIL feel about it if someone else's child was expressing themselves and figuring it out by throwing rocks at one of their own children?

All of this. The widespread misunderstanding of gentle parenting is infuriating. Very firm boundaries are a defining feature - it is how you enforce those boundaries that is the key.

I consider myself a gentle parent and I wouldn't let my child do those things.

The only one I think is a little harder to condemn is the screaming. My friends 2 year old is also doing the screaming/laughing thing and it's really hard to balance it with not giving too much attention to it as it feeds into it whilst also not letting it become a problem for people around them.
But she's also 2... not 5...

I think its really difficult to have conversations with people about their parenting sometimes. Might be better in the long run to try to step back from spending time with them until things improve. Though no guarantees that it will of course.

As we live far away it's hard to limit contact otherwise we will be missing the kids growing up and there is a lot of pressure on us to make the effort as we were the ones that moved far away. Agree with everyone that the next step is that we won't be doing any more holidays though - the one before that was really stressful also.

• Doesn't sound like you are missing much.
• If you didn't live far away, I think many posters would be suggesting you consider moving away so I'd see that as a bonus right now.
• No more holidays, special events need to be pretty special and I'd do my utmost to be as far away from them as possible on the day itself.

It's down to you whether you address the problem but as you are not a direct relative I'd stay out of it entirely as it sounds like you will have to vote with your feet for a while and any attempts to avoid social contact will mean the blame is laid at your door rather than DH's.

"We'd like an adult only holiday this time" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Presume you are also under pressure for kids parties, Christmas and so on. Holidays are a stretch too far if you are not enjoying the experience.

So is, "hell no, get back to us when you have civilised your children and realised that parenting means actually teaching them to be responsible humans who observe social norms like using a toilet" but I think there'd be more fall out from that.

"No thank-you " should be your response next time they want to get together. You don't have to be a parent to know that the behaviour is not acceptable.
If I had been around and witnessed any of that behaviour I would have told the parents straight to get a grip on their little horrors. Openingly pissing in a swimming pool and shitting in a pub garden is disgusting and unsanitary

Fucking hell OP! This is not gentle parenting, it's not really parenting at all...permissive at a push. This is totally outrageous and sadly, they are setting their kids up for a pretty shitty life because people just won't like them and kids won't want to play with them. Other parents won't want to invite them to things.

Kids NEED and want boundaries. I gentle parent and under no circumstances would I tolerate any of that from my child. Gentle parenting does not mean no boundaries. Permissive parenting is not good for kids or anyone who has to put up with their behaviour.

If I were you I just wouldn't go on holiday with them again. I would avoid them. Waiting until they get older might be a good idea but I can't see how the children will behave in an acceptable way at any age when they clearly will have no boundaries. Perhaps school will be enough to sort them out...I doubt it though and feel sorry for the teachers as clearly the parents won't be onside with any behavioural expectations.

I used to have a friend who was like this

At the time,we where both single mums and had known each other for years

Her ds was the same age as my no3 child

He was a bloody terror-he would bite another child
'Don't bite sweetie!kind teeth!'
He'd thump another child
'Kind hands darling!'
He'd smash something of another child
'I didn't see him do it' or 'don't do that baby boy'
Scream at the top of your lungs?she'd ignore him until it got too much even for her 'shhhh sweetheart'
Piss on the floor?(aiming at people as you pissed)
'The rain will wash that away' and 'it'll wash off your shoes/trousers/tights/socks'

The kids grew up and he got worse (we barely saw them by this time-but the last time i saw them,id been summoned to go to his younger sisters birthday)

He was about 12/13 at this time

I was standing on the doorstep,having rang the bell and was waiting for her to answer

He leaned out of her bedroom window and spat at me-it hit me in my face and hair

She answered and I explained what he'd done

She turned round (the stairs where behind her) 'have you been upstairs and spat at Sharon?'

He was standing at the top of the stairs,smirking at us

'no,i havent been upstairs'

And she turned and walked away-no bollocking,no telling off,nothing-im standing there,covered in spit watching her walk away from me

I just put the present and card down and walked away-ive not seen her since

Don't get me wrong,I'm far from a perfect parent but there is no way mine would have got away with half of what he got away with (Oddly,she's really strict with her dds)

Hit someone?you will be removed
Bite someone-ditto
Scream and scream for fun?you got told once,and then removed
Break something because you find it funny?you'll replace it with your pocket money
Piss on the floor,holding yourself and laughing while trying to spray as many pairs of shoes as you can?God help you-i would have gone mental and you would have been grounded for a week

All have grown up to be lovely adults who all have good jobs/at uni and are lovely company and are respectful-not perfect,but who is?

(in spite of me being their mother with all my faults in life)

He's now a violent adult who sits around smoking weed,refuses to get a job and she tip-toes round him,insisting he's just 'misunderstood' and she just throws money at him or he thumps her (his grandparents are the same-they throw money at him but don't pull him up on his behaviour either)

You reap what you sew

Personally I wouldn’t comment but I wouldn’t go away with them or stay with them for a good while!

@adviceaunt

😮

Allowed both kids to play a game throwing large rocks and pebbles at people walking by

and

I want to stress that they do provide a loving, affection, safe environment and their children are cared for.

The two don't tally.