To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

My children were at a school which decided to adopt a strict uniform policy. We had a few months notice and the summer holidays to buy any new clothing/shoes. Yes, we had the choice to follow the new rules or withdraw our children. Schools get new staff, start and stop extra-curricular activities, drop A Level courses etc all the time. The changes won't be to everyone's taste, all the time but that's life.

This mum is planning to take the school to court over something else she doesn’t like, her lawyers have apparently sent a letter to Michaela school. I really wouldn’t blame Michaela for trying to block admission to the second child. Can you imagine the amount of time it takes up for SLT to deal with this stuff, a court case a year.

And, like I said, your view of racism differs to mine.

And mine. It isn’t being racist imo to not arrange prayer areas in a secular state school. I’ve been on the receiving end of vile antisemitism throughout my life. I defend racism when I see or hear it. I hate any minority group being singled out, targeted or abused. Not facilitating a prayer area in this situation is not racist.

We have a British value of freedom of religion which is precious and actually only possessed by relatively few countries.

However we do not have freedom from. religion i.e. other faiths and atheism. We cannot avoid our children living in a society where people practise all faiths and none. We also do not have the right to impose our beliefs on others or expect society at large to adhere to our particular religious standards.

I think this where people of faith especially non extreme Christian faith including Islam struggle.

Religious practice seems quite isolated if everyone doesn't do the same. A Muslim man may require his spouse to dress modestly wearing a head dress etc. but that idea of modesty only works if all women in the surrounds do the same. A Muslim man may be literally religiously wedded to modesty in women as a part of his faith but he can't demand that more liberal women do that

Secularity in society to some us and affront and that include schools.

@mids2019 - it's a very misguided approach to imagine that Britain has got any appetite to introduce religious schools. Literally all our history tells us it's a recipe for division. Those people are going to be disappointed

We live in a predominantly Christian country, although admittedly most are not practicing Christians. The children in this case were laying down their blazers in the playground to prayer during breaks, which was totally inappropriate. There are many other schools in the region who pander to this sort of nonsense, so why choose to send your children to a school who does not facilitate it? I absolutely wouldn’t blame the head for blocking the second child’s attendance, and in fact think they should have the right to expel the first child, as clearly the relationship between school and this family has broken down.

mids2019

I agree with your comments. The UK do far more than many other countries to accommodate those of different races and faiths. Try getting an Urdu, Punjabi interpreter in a German hospital or government department for example, and it will really take some doing. You rarely get governmemt documents in a whole load of languages.

I think the accommodation we allow for here is pretty good. When people come to the UK without English then they can still access the information and advice they need. Kids can wear Hijabs, Kippahs, Turbans etc. Medical settings provide modesty shorts for women undergoing gynae and bowel procedures. You can get translators to attend important appointments and schools provide halal foods. Recent newcomer to a school are buddied up with someone to look out for them and extra English classes are provided and generally kids are welcomed within their school environment as they absolutely should be. There are things that need more action such as kids being able to wear their hair in afros without discrimination. In the main I think the UK does pretty well in accommodating the rights of other religions and ethnicities. We need to and should do a lot better as there is clearly one heck of a problem with institutional racism within the police and government who display alarming Islamophobia/Antisemitism. We do not need prayer areas in secular schools and I’m not changing my mind about that.

We have come a long way since my DGPs arrived here as refugees, speaking only Russian/Yiddish, at various ages between 8 - 11, plonked in a classroom with around 40 kids and left to crack on with zero help. We equally don’t need to go to the other end of the spectrum with the religious needs of everyone considered within a school setting.

Maybe we live a country that is culturally Christian but I don't think many of us posting would have the appetite to return to the kind of dogma we had in previous centuries. This is the thing that gets missed out in discussions of religious freedom. Britain had a long time of not being free about it at all. I don't want it back and endorsed by the state.

Schools have to allow Christian worship, though, don't they? In theory.

bombastix. I agree. I don’t want any religious dogma sanctioned or accommodated in the UK. Too many people have suffered enough at the hands of it already. We need to move on.

Just look around the world and see what religious dogma does, particularly to women. I may have missed some, but all the main religions I can think of subjugate women, give power and control to men and are very prone to corruption. Schools should be secular and religion should be personal and private.

Funny that. Literally just got my child’s primary school place. 90% of the schools in my town are COE with a couple being Catholic. I think there were 2 out of maybe 12 that were not. No one complains about bible stories and engaging in Christian festivals (neither am I as my child is about to go to a COE school) but a few minutes to practice a personal belief??

Perhaps you all need to evaluate why you find this so objectionable. If a school was in an area in which a large proportion of students were Jewish and many wanted to observe a very important part of their religion, eg the sabbath, why not allow it? Would we be having this conversation?

Hardly a convincing argument. What are you saying? That we shouldn't be able to bring any legal challenges through the courts? That we shouldn't be able to bring judicial review challenges? That we shouldn't have legal aid? Or what?

If it was, that would have destroyed much of the school's case as to its reasoning for changing the rules.

Really? Even if there are no available places in appropriate schools in the vicinity? Even if you are coming up to important public exams? Be realistic.

No they wouldn't. Plenty of schools allow and even faciitate prayer without any else being disrupted at all.

Talking of disruption, I had the misfortune to be sent to a school that made a big thing of Christianity though it wasn't a church school as such. I just worked out that we lost the equivalent of 11 school days a year in terms of time spent on religious worship. Odd how no-one complained about disruption when it was the C of E doing it.

Bullshit.

The length or prayer varies and is usually between 10-15 minutes. Not including ablutions.

If you can do it in under 5, I think you are doing it wrong differently than most.

I got really confused about who Michael was!

I think it's a fair ruling for a secular school.

My daughter is at a secondary with a Christian ethos, neither of us have a religion. They also have a prayer room for Muslim students though. From what I understand it's somewhere to lark about in, if it's raining!

That said, my daughter knows far more about Islam than she does Christianity. It's always interesting to learn another view point and beliefs.

It's not for me though. Knowledge yes, shackled no.

Well you seem to be really targeting my replies for some reason. We can NOT facilitate space and time for every religion in the world in our schools! Are you saying Islam is somehow special and more deserving than others? I can assure you it’s most definitely not. It’s the same as any other religion that is practiced in the world.

We don’t have the time, the space or the resources to even consider allowing ‘prayer time’ for every religion in the world - which would be the only FAIR thing to do - religion has to stay outside the class room so children can concentrate on their EDUCATION which is why they are there.

Most children finish school at 3.30pm leaving ample time to practice any religion. It can not, should not, and will not dominate in a school setting.

The Judge and legal advisors will have considered the OVERALL impact to children’s education - which if we include everyone’s prayer time they will be doing very little else - and decided this is the best outcome for the children and their future.

There is ample time outside of school hours to follow religious pursuits.

What about Jewish, Hindu children and other religions? There are most definitely more than two religions in the works. Are the rest ignored in your school? That seems to me to be even worse! Discrimination at best.

That is your choice as it is the choice of every parent whatever their reasoning. No-one in this instance was forced to go to this school, or to stay there.

What I do find concerning is the parents support of the children bullying other pupils and teachers. This is disgusting imo and the head has decisively taken action to stop this. I for one think that is the right thing to do. If any child is being bullied no parent, regardless of religion, should support that.

The assumption here is that this is a Christian vs Muslim issue when in fact it appears to be Muslim children bullying other Muslim children and intimidating (quite possibly) muslim teachers.

The Muslim faith is purported to be a faith of peace and therefore, if they are as devout as they want us to believe, then bullying others to fit in with their own ideology, should not be supported.

I think you couldn't have individual children praying at individual times either. It is the collective nature of the praying that makes it more a profound change of ethos. It is children praying and wishing to be seen praying to fit in with a community. If collective worship is allowed this definitely changes the ethos of the school.

Yeah tell a Muslim it’s bullshit how they pray. What a sanctimonious person you are telling me that I’m wrong in how I pray in MY religion??? Like get a grip. If you want me to break it down I can happily. It takes less than a minute to do the ablutions and can be done sometimes from the morning. Either way it would be done in a bathroom seperate to praying. Each prayer takes 2-3 mins on average. You can be slower or faster depending on the verses recited. During a normal school day depending on the time of year you would only do 1-2 of the five daily prayers.

This is the problem with mumsnet and society as a whole. You just want to control other people and children who are slightly different to you and only accept your way of living life and try and tell others that they are wrong even if it’s something you literally don’t understand.

Read about what happened. There was disruption. Children were laying down blazers in the playground during breaks to pray, and were intimidating others. That is disruption, and not something we want to encourage in this country.